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[PC1963]

Hope I didn't steal your thunder, pc.

I saw a post some time back from Inchworm asking Bryan if his bronze were wild caught. I thought at the time, "Maybe she wants to infuse her cories with some new/wild blood."

While I think there is cross breeding in the wild, I am guessing that the lps fish that are bought from locals are often hybrids and the lineage is questionable. I know when I take my C. aeneus to the lps; they are all from one group with no bronze from another source, they were purchased from the lps, and I didn't ask at the time about their source; they have been breeding in a tank with other species. So their lineage is truely in doubt.

These are all things that must eventually be considered when one starts to breed. That is why I have gone to the trouble of seeking a second source for my albino long fin peppers--to strengthen the line that I would offer. I really am a newbe at the breeding thing. I raised my first fry last winter, but I have just started to take it a bit more seriously.

Nope you didn't steal anything Glad someone has opinion and share with other.

It is a very good idea if one wants to breed the cory then trying to buy from different source so the blood line will not become weak and can be improving quality of the fish.

 

[jollysue]

Yes! We have an important topic going on in the forum. Open discussion of our experiences and knowledge is the best way for us all--or at least for me--to grow and learn. I find people also learn to listen to one another and grow in an open non threatening discussion. It isn't about winning an argument, but understanding the issues and making informed choices.

I can't get the smilies to open for me so please imagine a buddies/friends smilie to you from me!

 

[PC1963]

Yes, the forums are should be friendly argument also the good knowleadge for anyone who interesting exchange information. I'm glad to found this forums

 

[jollysue]

I'm glad you found it too,

 

[Gnatfish]

Thanks jollysue for clearing that up.

improving quality of the fish

But what are we improving? There life or just what they look like to us?

Can't you just buy some males from one lfs and females from another? As you said, cories in the wild probably inbreed, isn't that how things change? And then if that strain or whatever gets weak, they die and the stronger ones live.

I don't really understand so i'm just learning. Please don't take it offensively.

I guess i just don't like the fact that they have so much space in the wild, and we just kinda ruin there lifes. Well we don't even know if they like it in our tanks. I suppose if their breeding there happy.

EDIT:

That is why I have gone to the trouble of seeking a second source for my albino long fin peppers--to strengthen the line that I would offer.

..weren't they the inbred unnatural ones?

 

[jollysue]

Never offended by honest questions.

Your concerns are at the heart of the inherent cruelty involved with fish keeping. It is a selfish hobby. For example, when we save an endangered species, who are we saving it for? Surely not the fish. It is just a fish. It knows nothing of the issues we are concerned with. It lives it's life. I want it to continue, so I can enjoy it. The creature knows nothing of the end of posterity. It breeds because a hormone drives it to breed. It behaves as its genetic makeup demands.

We improve their quality because we want quality fish. Hopefully that will result in healthier fish. But in the large fish mills (think puppy mills) it does not. The fish species is slowly degraded. Neon Tetras are a prime example.

I have frontosa Cichlids. They live in a little tank compared to their Tanganyikan lake in Africa. They are magnificent fish. Mine are some of the most gorgeous of the species. Do you know their possible fate in Africa? They are eaten by the locals. But I did not get them to save them from the plate. I got them to enjoy their beauty. We really do anthropmorphize these fish very much. They are not human and do not think about the things we think about. Who knows if they miss anything? It's like when we neuter our dogs. Does the dog really know it's missing anything? It does not miss anything. It no longer wants what was taken. It is fully able to enjoy life just as much as before. Just meet its basic needs, and it is happy.

Most of this is just my opinion, and how I see it. But I doubt that any fish hobbyist would argue that keeping fish in a tank (except in the rare circumstance of healing a hurt wildlife) is anything but selfish. We just behave as humanely as we can with their care. But we do it for our enjoyment. If keeping wild caught fish pricks you, then you will not enjoy them. Then you shoudn't keep wild caught.

I have to go to bed. If no one else addresses your concerns, I'll try again later.

 

[Gnatfish]

I suppose we save them from the harsh reality of the food chain, but yes i agree fish keeping is selfish.

My main concern is the SPACE we provide them with. I'm just one of those people that disagree with keeping Bettas in 1g jars or Stingrays in tanks that they can turn round in but its not exactly freedom.

Being a newbie, i don't see the difference really in taking a fish from the wild where there is as much chance of it being inbred or a cross between something else than taking a male and female from two different tank bred sources.

But many "pros" are getting loads of species from the wild, so I'm obviously missing some point.

 

[jollysue]

As I said, I have clown loaches. I have had wild caught and tank bred. The tank bred are often not as hardy and their black stripes lose their regularity and color over a few generations of captive breeding. The wild ones are more hardy (of course they have been naturally culled and not kept alive with artificial means when they would have died in the wild). Their colors (orange and black) are more vibrant and the stripes are regular and not broken. (I should correct my terminoligy: the loaches are most likely commercially bred.)

Yes, as you say getting tank bred fish from different sources improves the quality--or can. The problem is that the batch of fish you buy at the lps may have been inter bred many times. The gene pool in that batch of fish has been reduced through each successive breeding. Bad genes have been strengthened. (The most famous example is the royal kings and queens of Euope that interbred until the incidence of hemophila was high in their podgeny, but they had the qualities of leadership neccessary to rule.)

I know that the way my long fins got their long fins is by repeatedly breeding them with long fins--often within the same tank bred family. By getting some from another source, I have a chance of introducing some new genes that were bred out of mine in their tank. As a matter of fact, I have now recieved a picture of the new ones and they look different. So they have been bred for slightly different qualities. I will eventually post some pics with comparisons.

In Texas, the cattlemen brought bulls and heifers from Europe to breed into the long horns of Texas. They slowlly bred the cattle's long horns out and increased the meat production. The long horns are more suited to the Texas environment, but their meat was not as suitable for the purpose of the cattlemen. In the end I suppose that they got an "improved" cow for their purposes. The cows could no longer live in the wild, but they weren't skewering one another with their horns in cramped conditions. Same concept with dairy cows.

Breeders who are practiced will do what they see as disirable for their purposes.

Believe me when I say that the higher quality fish are not usually sold in the lps. (The lps may have the contacts to get them for you, but unless you have a special relationship with them, you are paying an additional premium.) Experienced breeders get their breeding fish from different sources usually. I would not breed the appistos in the lps. I would go to appistodave or some other notable source.

 

[Betterbettas]

improving quality of the fish

But what are we improving? There life or just what they look like to us?


I guess i just don't like the fact that they have so much space in the wild, and we just kinda ruin there lifes. Well we don't even know if they like it in our tanks. I suppose if their breeding there happy.

Have you ever seen the waterways they come from ? Have you ever read about the pollution that exists in these waterways today that is causing many species to disappear ? How about the fact that the "locals" and tribes would not have any means of surviving without the fish trade ? What about the fact that housing them in captivity not only strenghtens the genetic foundation but also assures us that these species will be here for generations to come ?

As you can see there are 2 sides to every coin and I could go on and on. If we are going to ask the question "But what are we improving? Their life or just what they look like to us?" then we need to ask the other questions that fairly need the same answers !

 

[Gnatfish]

Have you ever seen the waterways they come from ? Have you ever read about the pollution that exists in these waterways today that is causing many species to disappear ? How about the fact that the "locals" and tribes would not have any means of surviving without the fish trade ? What about the fact that housing them in captivity not only strenghtens the genetic foundation but also assures us that these species will be here for generations to come ?

As you can see there are 2 sides to every coin and I could go on and on. If we are going to ask the question "But what are we improving? Their life or just what they look like to us?" then we need to ask the other questions that fairly need the same answers !

Mmm..you act as if all species are endangered which is simply not true. Yes there probably is pollution that causes the extinction of certain species, so that's why people take them into captivity to save that species. But there are many species that are perfectly fine.

You do have a point about the tribes, however.

But aren't they as likely to inbreed in the wild as in captivity? Isn't that how we get new species? I'm still a bit puzzled at the difference between a 'deformity' and just a new species. Isn't there a reason why some species are 'hardier' than others? So how is the genetic foundation strengthened? Hasn't engineering pandas to have long fines, weekend it?

I'm not necessarily against it. Sure there are perfectly good reasons keeping them in captivity, but I'm just wondering the reasons why we do it unnecessarily and whether its just because we like it.

 

[Bozza]

The only information i can bring to the topic is that interbreeding weakens their immunity to diseases. when i use to keep guppies when i was a newbie in fish keeping they use to breed alot and i saw that those fry died alot easier when it came down to common diseses. The fish that survived the longest were from a proper breeder and the fish that i had noticed died earlier were inbreed. Im sorry if that doesnt make any sense im really tired This topic has given me much information and look forward to further replies to it. Will read it again when im awake more.


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