On A Lfs Mission

[gaz gun man]

I may be living in a dream world here, but I seem to see alot of people saying you can't go ramming fishless cycling methods down joe bloggs mouth - fair enough

BUT is it really so hard to say something like (when asked when should I add fish)

'There is a method called fishless cycling, that will take around a month to complete, and will include you adding ammonia everyday - I can give you this information pack on fishless cycling if you would like to go down this route.
Alternatively you can add hardy fish after the water has settled to prepare the filter for a full fish load, however it will be highly possible you will have deaths due to toxic levels the fish will create'

A sentence like that would take about a minute to say, and leave the customer to make their mind up - if they go down the fish-in route then atleast they'll know why they are getting deaths in their tank, they cant come back 2 weeks later ranting about being sold duff fish, nor can they come on here saying 'my LFS said I could fishless cycle but I didnt and now I have dead fish what do I do now?'

 

[Axleuk]

Its a sad fact but you Fishless Cycling lot are in the minority. Rightly or wrongly your average first time fish store customer, is there for fish. A shop keeper is not going to tell them to come back next month after they have completed a fishless cycle because they will only go elsewhere and spend their money there. No successful businessman or woman will turn away the opportunity to make money, thats a fact.

What 5teady is doing is admirable and i am all for educating the shopkeeper, but it is a battle that cannot be won with only 1 person. It would need a well thought out, and well funded campaign with plenty of exposure on a national if not global scale.

Knowlege is power, and getting that knowlege out there is not an easy task and there is no guarentee anyone will listen.

Your average Joe Fish Superstore thinks he knows it all and thats not going to change. All you can do is rest assured that the method you chose to cycle a tank is the right for you without too much detriment to the fish and should you support fishless cycling then talking about it with you friendly neighbourhood fish dude is the best thing you can do and they can then make the decision what to do, but i can guarentee your efforts are falling on deaf ears.

Now then, the phone calls part is very good as i believe it goes a long way in highlighting the variety of information first time fish babysitters are subject too, so you can understand why the fishy public are divided in their views.

Now then, anyone fancy taking on Scientology ?

 

[pauly]

Lets not get into another slanging match hey.

First of all, credit to Steady for changing his approach - which I'm sure he agrees has provided a better outcome?

A few good points have come out of this thread, the main one I think being: should fishless cycling be targetted to the LFSs?

1. I presume the store tanks are run off a central filter system, so do the stores even cycle each and every tank? Without doing it themselves how do they become 'experts'?
2. As soon as the LFS start giving detailed advice, they in effect become consultants. Just look at the number of fishless cycling threads on here. If an LFS started giving out fishless cycling advice, imagine how much more demand on their time would be taken up by customers coming in with problems. In my LFSs it's often a struggle to get anyone to serve you, let alone sit down and explain how you're doing a cyling wrong. I think this could be the main deterrence to LFSs offering such advice rather than the costs issue.
3. Most businesses are run to cater to the demands of their customers. If people don't want to do fishless cycling, which lets face it most newbies dont, then the businesses aren't going to offer it to them.
4. Somebody on here has already mentioned that the target for fishless cycling should be the customers, not the LFSs. How do you get to the customers early enough? What about approaching the aquarium manufacturers about putting a pamphlet in with every tank with an outline of the fishless cycle and a link to a website or something? If people read it as part of setting up their new aquarium ie. when they're at home and have to time to sit down and take it all in, then maybe they'll be more inclined to give it a go. Then if the customers start asking about fishless cycling at the LFSs, the stores will be forced to learn and then give the correct advice, because their customers are demanding it.

Just my thoughts, there could even be an opportunity for somebody to make money here!

Pauly.

 

[Axleuk]

Lets not get into another slanging match hey.

First of all, credit to Steady for changing his approach - which I'm sure he agrees has provided a better outcome?

A few good points have come out of this thread, the main one I think being: should fishless cycling be targetted to the LFSs?

1. I presume the store tanks are run off a central filter system, so do the stores even cycle each and every tank? Without doing it themselves how do they become 'experts'?
2. As soon as the LFS start giving detailed advice, they in effect become consultants. Just look at the number of fishless cycling threads on here. If an LFS started giving out fishless cycling advice, imagine how much more demand on their time would be taken up by customers coming in with problems. In my LFSs it's often a struggle to get anyone to serve you, let alone sit down and explain how you're doing a cyling wrong. I think this could be the main deterrence to LFSs offering such advice rather than the costs issue.
3. Most businesses are run to cater to the demands of their customers. If people don't want to do fishless cycling, which lets face it most newbies dont, then the businesses aren't going to offer it to them.
4. Somebody on here has already mentioned that the target for fishless cycling should be the customers, not the LFSs. How do you get to the customers early enough? What about approaching the aquarium manufacturers about putting a pamphlet in with every tank with an outline of the fishless cycle and a link to a website or something? If people read it as part of setting up their new aquarium ie. when they're at home and have to time to sit down and take it all in, then maybe they'll be more inclined to give it a go. Then if the customers start asking about fishless cycling at the LFSs, the stores will be forced to learn and then give the correct advice, because their customers are demanding it.

Just my thoughts, there could even be an opportunity for somebody to make money here!

Pauly.

This statement is by far the most productive way of getting the message out there and i totally agree with it, however you have to understand that this also has its own problems. These tanks are probably made on a production line and there would be no doubt an initial cost to setup a facility to 'pop a brochure in every tank'.

- Who picks up this cost ?
- Who is going to pay for the literatre to be printed and supplied to these manufacturers?
- Who will be made accountable for the information produced?

Remember that fishless cycling is an opinion and not a law therefore it would be difficult to get a manufacturer to change it ways, when it doesnt have to. Especially if it has to spend money setting it up and is not going to get a return on that outlay. Simple economics really. I am not against the idea, i think it is a good one, but you have to realistic.

If people care enough about fish, they will find places like this and do their research first, but sadly the majority will carry on as they have been.

 

[Dorkhedeos]

Dorkhedeos, frankly I think you're very wrong. Cars are a bad comparison because everyone knows the basics about how to run a car (theres alot more people out there who've run a car successfully than a fish tank.) The vast majority of people who are new to the hobby know nothing about cycling a tank and turn to the 'experts' to tell them how to setup and run a fish tank successfully. And alot are getting fobbed off with bad advice.

If you can assume everybody knows how to run a car, couldnt you also assume everybody knows how the nitrogen cycle works since you are taught it in highschool? I also wasnt talking about running a car, I was talking about maintaining it and keeping it running. Of course everybody that has a license knows how to run a car. Not everybody has the privilege to have an auto class in their school, so many people who purchase cars dont know how it works. If a dealer tells you to change 1/3 of your transmission fluid every 30000 miles, you dont expect him to have an explanation of why right? It keeps your car alive. You wouldnt go against his instructions because you know it can harm your car.

So if you were first starting out and the fish "dealer" told you to put 1 fish in there for 3-4 weeks before adding more fish, I would assume you would follow their directions. If you didnt and added more fish, and you had some dieoff, it would be your fault, you wouldnt get mad at the fish store because you went against their instruction. Then you go back to the same store and try it again. You are sad that your fish died, but you go back for more because you knew it wasnt the stores fault, the store is happy, everything is good.

You guys have to remember that fish shops are businesses. They are selling living animals, but they are still a business. It is up to the consumer to do more research. It makes no sense to judge the store by the information they give you. What if a store gives bad information, but they have the craziest stock ever? Then you just screwed over a hobbyist(most of this forum). If you think about it, if you even have a few posts on this forum, chances are that you know about cycling. Whats the point of bashing fish stores and putting reviews that the average joe would never see? Average joe that has a few fish doesnt go on this forum because he isnt a hobbyist like us.

 

[orange shark]

i thought u said 3 stores 5teady i only see 1

 

[LauraFrog]

Pauly, I love your idea. The first tank I bought, I think illustrates the problems we see perfectly. It's a 5 gallon tank with approx. 5x/hour filtration. There is a photograph on the box of the tank set up and containing seven large goldfish - I would have assumed as a newbie that this was some kind of indication of what I could put in it. Inside is a brochure explaining how to maintain the tank that recommends completely cleaning out the filter once a month and replacing all the sponges. Fortunately it said not to clean the bio balls and bio rings as you will 'remove the bacteria essential to biological filtration' but it makes no mention as to how they get there. It also implies that testing the pH and letting the tank run for 24 hours 'to ensure excellent water quality for your new fish' is all that is required.

I'm working on a series of flyers called 'The Right Fin', tips for new fishkeepers.
So far, I'm planning:
- Are fish for you? (A realistic summary of the amount of work and money involved with a standard issue FW community)
- Choosing equipment (how to select and filter a tank, with a feature about all in one kits such as the ones I have)
- Cycling your tank (self explanatory; will do one flyer of methods and one detailed on fishless cycling if needed to fit.)
- Choosing fish (how to pick healthy fish, approximate stocking guidelines, fish newbies should not buy ie piranhas, oscars and maybe a small feature on fish suitable for small tanks)
- Bettas - The Real Story (I have to include this because I love bettas and I can't stand the abuse)
- Looking After Your Fish (how much to feed, doing water changes, maintaining a filter without killing it)
- When Disaster Strikes (preventing, identifying and treating common diseases, how to set up a hospital tank, dealing with a cycle spike, information to give your LFS or forum if something goes wrong, humane methods of fish euthanasia.)

 

[newfishy]

5teady, you nearly always make me laugh with your missions in life.

on a note to selling matured media, why not have a LARGE show tank with two sumps filled with ceramic bits, sell off ceramic bits out of one sump at a time, when one is near empty, refill and start selling bits out of the other.... a constantly replaced working mature media factory.

but also why not sell the mature media or even quality biosphira as well, explaining to shopers that if you dont buy the media and dont do daily large water changes all your fish will die and you will waste your money. if the lfs is growing their own media it even saves them the money of buying product in bulk.

most shoppers are going to pony up and spend a few extra bucks and save themselfs the time and hassle of constant water changes and replacing fish.

 

[Egmel]

Why is everyone suggesting selling mature media.

Why not just hang a bags of gravel in their holding tanks, these can be made out of tights or something similar. When someone comes in to buy a tank or their first fish you give them a bag of gravel with it's complement of bacteria. It's cheap for the LFS, the customer will take it because it's free, it means that the filter will get the kickstart it needs and the fish wont suffer anywhere near as much. Accompany this with a very basic pictorial leaflet about the nitrogen cycle and how important the bag of gravel is and voila job's a good'un!

5teady, while I appreciate what you want to do I too think that you're going about in the wrong manner. The latest phone call was much better but it was also to a friend of yours. What would be really good is if we could get PFK to write an article with suggestions like we've been making for LFSs, then we could take copies of the article into our LFSs and say 'look what the fish keeping magazines are saying nowadays, have you guys thought about doing this, it would be great if you did.'

 

[BecciMac1987]

Ummm do we not all think we are taking this a little seriousy? Careful, some of you may give yourself a nosebleed.
5teady- you can do whatever you please in your world, and by hell its bloody funny!
Pet shops- They will prob be a bit peed off, then have a laugh about that nightmare man over a cuppa and a soggy biscuit in the grimy staffroom.
Forum- We get to have a good giggle over the people getting hacked off/bickering/making stupid pictures (mmm no fingers pointed Ax), and, quicte frankly, Ive just read the whole think start to finish and im still LMAO!!!
Updates please 5teady!!

 

[5teady_2012]

Been nusy sry, updates soon

 

[Piltdownpaul]

Ah well ,some off us have to work ,morals or not.

 

[peter22UK]

haha i think 5teady is awesome

 

[BigC]

How many shops is that now!
Whats the difinitive answer.