Old tank syndrome

[thomas]

My last remaining tank has old tank syndrome. I have known it has problems for a while now, but only recently became sure that it was ots.

The pH is 5.5 or lower (according to a wide range pH test) ammonia is 0.3 to 0.6 max.

Nitrite is 0. Nitrate is very low I think, but I can't be sure because I don't have a test for it.

Despite possibly low nitrate I am convinced this is ots, the tank has been established for 2 and a half years, maybe longer.

This year has been a very bad year for fish for me, it started early this year, when one of the fish in the tank got sick, within 3 days he was dead. I assumed it was just old age, until I tested nitrite and ammonia and nitrite was very high. I couple days after, we found (I say we because I have a friend who looks after the tanks I am talking about with me) a dead catfish, and couldn't find the other catfish. We assumed one of the catfish had died under a rock or somewhere we couldn't see, and caused the high nitrite. We increased water changes and the nitrite was lowered. No other fish have been added, removed, or died in that tank since then. All fish in the tank are cichlids.

At some point the tank water has gotten like it is now, ammonia present (although not toxic) and extremely low pH. There is also 0 kH I believe (Which makes sense for the pH and the idea of old tank syndrome).

Unfortunately since then many others possibly unrelated problems appeared with other tanks.

1 tank which was home to an Oscar had high pH and after a large water change died, possibly of ammonia or nitrite poisoning. After that month long issue I had realised that out tap water has an ammonia level of over 1.2 and a pH of about 7.5 to 8.0. I don't know when our tap water got like that, because it wasn't until then.

Another suffered a full tank death from ich. Probably from a new fish which I didn't want to add, although it was quarantined. Maybe it was a carrier. Ich didn't appear till several weeks after adding the fish.

In conclusion, I have 1 tank left, 5 fish, not sure of the tank size.

I won't be adding any new fish to the tank or setting up any new tanks (unless it's for the current tanks fish). Both because I don't want to experience any more fish death like I have had over the past year. And because I don't have an interest in fish. Tho I want to do everything I can to ensure the survival of all present fish in the remaining tank.

Problem 1. The tank has low pH, ammonia present, little to no kH, and most likely not working beneficial bacteria due to the low pH (My understanding is the die after lower then 5.5-6.0).
Problem 2. Tap water has high pH (7.5-8.0) and high ammonia (1.2) enough to be toxic if the fish were in that. No nitrite in the tap water.

My question is what I should to to ensure the highest chance of survival for the fish in the tank.

It is my understanding that at these levels, they are surviving because the water would of become like this over a very long time (maybe months). But that at these levels they have a higher chance of sickness and/or lower life span.

However I am concerned that raising the pH will make the ammonia more deadly (especially with it in tap water). Or that it will cause the cycling process to start (like New tank syndrome) causing nitrite, ammonia and nitrate spikes.

I can't get RO water and an RO filter is very expensive.

No fish will ever be added to this tank again, even if conditions in the tank are restored.

I have bacterial supplement, and prime (water conditioner that removes 0.6 ammonia, and nitrite, chlorine and chloramine from water).

My idea was to use prime to lower or remove the ammonia in the tap water I put in with water changes. And do small (%10-%15) water changes every day or every 2 days until the pH is higher and ammonia is less). I am concerned about the tank recycling tho.

My concerns about this are what have prompted me to ask for help on this forum.

I would like to know what opinions the people here have about what I can do for best chance of survival for all fish in the tank, keeping in mind I am adding no more. At the moment no fish look too sick, they are all eating and swimming around. However one looks like she is breeding with another of the fish and has had breeding colors for weeks now.

I appreciate any opinions positive or negitive.

 

[The-Wolf]

hi
you say RO water is out of your budget, have you considered bottled water?
any amount of ammonia is a potential hazzard, this should be the first thing that you tackle.
Waterlife products make "Haloex" this is used for theneutralisation of chlorine,fluorine,bromine and iodine. Additionally it contains some organic compounds found in tropical waters thus its a conditioner as well.

As for the pH problem a stable pH is far more required than the "ideal" pH. I'd not mess with the pH untill everything else is sorted out, even then I'd be causous about raising it.

 

[thomas]

I intended to tackle the ammonia problem first, with water changes.

If I removed the ammonia from the water I put in, only the pH would be different, and I have tested bottled water's pH, and it's the same as the tap.

What would be the difference?

The pH of the tank isn't stable. My understanding is kH is what causes the pH to stabilize, but theres none in the water.

If the pH was higher (say 6.0 or more) I wouldn't touch it. But 5.5 is very low even for cichlids (thats my understanding. Please correct me if it's wrong)

Actually, looking at the test results, it looks like 5.0 (which is the bottem of the test kit's range, 5.0-9.0).

 

[CFC]

To deal with the ammonia problem in your tapwater i suggest using a product called AMMO LOCK, this will bind up the ammonia present in the tapwater into a non toxic form and make it safe for water changes. I suspect that the source of the ammonia is that your water supplier have switched from using chlorine gas to disinfect the water to using chloramine which is much more stable and stays in the water even after heavy aeration.
Do the water changes a little and often to prevent the fish going into pH shock, start off doing 5% per day and then once the pH has risen to 7 up it to 10%, keep the water changes going daily until the pH of the tank and the pH of the tapwater have equalised.
There will be some bacteria still present in the tank even at the low pH but there may not be enough to cope, when doing the water changes vacume a small area of the substrate each day too to remove accumilated dirt and crap from the substrate which will be causing the low pH and high ammonia/nitrite.
Check the KH of your tapwater, if it is low like the tankwater then i suggest adding a small ammount of coral sand or crushed coral in a mesh bag to the tank to lift the KH and stabilise the pH, if the KH of the tapwater is fine then you wont need to do this.

Good luck with it all and dont hesitate to come back for more help if needed

 

[thomas]

The kh of the tap water seems to be fine for the pH.

I don't have ammo lock, but prime removes ammonia too probably in the same way, and I have used it for a while. After using it the ammonia tests report it lower, however I am a bit concerned that when I leave the water for a long time after using it to lower the ammonia, I think the ammonia somehow goes up again. As it reports higher on the test.

Someone told me the high pH can be the cause of this, but this is something I don't know about. Unless you think I should use ammolock instead of prime, I will start with a %5 water change in a few hours using prime to remove ammonia from the water.

Do you think doing this will cause a ammonia-nitrite-nitrate spike like in nts

 

[CFC]

With the ammo lock the ammonia will still show as being present on a test kit but has been de toxified to a safe form, if the product you are using does the same then carry on using it. High pH wont cause ammonia to rise, the only effect pH has on ammonia is that in a pH lower than 6 ammonia is converted to its less toxic form of ammonium.
Doing the 5% water changes shouldnt cause a ammonia/nitrite spike as the ammount of water being changed is so minimal.

 

[thomas]

I am aware of that, I mean when pH reaches 7ish and the bacteria start reappearing.

Prime must do something else, because it causes the ammonia to drop on an ammonia test.

However for some reason after a day or so the ammonia starts appearing again (if it wasn't completly gone the first time). But it musn't do that once it's added to the tank. Otherwise what would be the point of having something show the ammonia as down then go up later. Not sure what the scientific reason for it is.

I am not %100 sure that the ammonia does come back, I might have just forgotten what the test said the day before.

 

[reg2k2]

I doubt you've had a bacteria die-off...I would think you'd already be seeing the spikes.
Prime says reduces .6 on the bottle...but is this the result you get?...did you test the replacemt water?
Since the tank measures a smaller amt than the tap, I'd assume the Prime's removing at least some of it/doing its job.
I would prob. use Ammo-Lock for ammonia out of tap...if you're satisfied w/ the Prime, I would still suggest maybe a sample-size, just to have on hand.

re: ammonia rising in the tank. CFC mentioned cleaning.....did you find the dead fish, cleaned around/under the decor? Any chance the tank's overstocked? What are the tank measuremt's...and size of fish?

As for 'old tank syndrome'...I believe the drop in pH would be marginal...not what you're seeing here.

The kh of the tap water seems to be fine for the pH.

Did you test it?
While high pH will usu. be accompanied a good KH reading....it's not always so....

in a pH lower than 6 ammonia is converted to its less toxic form of ammonium.

...that would be 7.0

 

[Gunnie]

Thomas, just a quick question about your ammonia readings. Are you using the ammonia test that goes from yellow to orange, or yellow to green?. The yellow to orange test will give you a false positive when you use ammo lock, amquel plus, etc. whereas the yellow to green test will not. Just a thought.

 

[thomas]

I am using yellow to green.

It was my understanding that old tank syndrome does cause the pH to slowly drop around to 5.0-5.5. Which is the tank.
Pritty much every other symptom matches aswell.

EDIT: Oh, and yes, untreated water comes up as about 1.2. With prime it goes to around 0.4-0.6.

It says in these cases use double dose.

 

[reg2k2]

Yep, my mistake...quick search set me straight.
Altho, a 0KH reading from the tap could produce the same result.

Hope things are going well?