Okay! Final Stocking! Any errors?

[Hyr]

Hi, I know I've asked this question a lot of times, but I think I have finally decided on a stocking. If there are any errors, please tell me.
Dimensions: 36in x 16in x 12in or a 30 gallon tank.
pH: 7.3
Hardness: 3.0dkH BUT I will have an aquascape with Seiryu stone which is notorious for bringing the hardness levels up, plus my declorinator itself increases it slightly, which leads me to believe I will be able to achieve 5dkH easily. Also my substrate has lots of minerals, such as iron, potassium, etc.. (ADA Amazonia)

Stocking:
10x Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish
15x Espei Rasboras
10x Amano/Crystal Red Shrimp.

And that's it! I will have mediocre flow with 250gph diffused across a 11 hole spray bar. I will be dosing co2, very moderately though, trying to maintain 15ppm, which from my countless hours of research, I have concluded will not poison the fish. I will also have what I believe to be high light, but, I will add floating plants.. I am thinking Amazon Frogbit, but it has ugly roots. Does anyone know of floating plants that won't look bad in an aquascape? Thanks!

 

[Monty2451]

Right off the bat, for a 30 gal. tank this is definitely overstocked. Going by the minimum adult size of these fish (1" for the rasboras, and 1.5" for the rainbows) it hits 30 inches worth of fish exactly, and at maximum growth it will exceed the capacity by 10 inches. While shrimp will help with the overall tank health, they don't have a negative bioload, but so very close to an even one that 10 is not an issue, except that the tank is already at max capacity by the minimum adult sizes. Not to mention that in a planted tank you will want snails as well to help keep the ecosystem of the tank balanced, but again, they have about an even bioload, but not a negative one. A well balanced planted tank can deal with a certain level of overload, but in such a small tank, 33%+ overstock is way too much.

As for more appealing floating plants, it's all a matter of personal taste, but I like the look of dwarf water lettuce, plus the shrimp will love it. There is a huge list of floating plants, but some of the most common are: duckweed, salvinia, and even hornwort or watersprite which can both be left to float rather than planted. It's really up to you and your own personal taste.

I would say, if you cut at least 5 inches of total fish length from this, a healthy 30 gal. tank could most likely handle that amount of overload (about 17%). The other option is to just play it safe and get a 40 gal. tank and there won't be any issues in terms of bioload.

 

[Hyr]

Going by the minimum adult size of these fish (1" for the rasboras, and 1.5" for the rainbows) it hits 30 inches worth of fish exactly, and at maximum growth it will exceed the capacity by 10 inches.

I thought the 1" per gallon rule isn't necessarily accurate. You're right that it is very closed to it's stocking capacity, but I think it would be fine how it is. But for the sake of the fact that planted tanks are exceptionally dirty, I'll go with 10x Espei Rasboras.

I would say, if you cut at least 5 inches of total fish length from this, a healthy 30 gal. tank could most likely handle that amount of overload (about 17%).

Again, can you explain to me why the 1" per gallon rule is in fact accurate?

The other option is to just play it safe and get a 40 gal. tank and there won't be any issues in terms of bioload.

A bit to late for that!

 

[Monty2451]

The inch per gallon rule is a general rule of thumb used to help determine the feasibility of a given bioload in an aquarium. Naturally, there are exceptions on a case by case basis given a particular species needs in terms of space required for their size, the amount of waste produced, their feeding habits, etc. For example, larger prefatory fish, such as large cichlids (say an oscar) need to be housed in a large tank with few if any other inhabitants, both because they are very messy fish that produce a large bioload and their predatory nature. Even then any other inhabitants should be cleaners (snails, shrimp, pleco, etc.), and even their safety is not guaranteed given a particular fishes temperament, stressors, appetite, etc. Of course their are exceptions to this where individual fish have been kept in more of a large community setting, but those are extremely large tanks with comparably sized fish that they would not be able to prey on. The opposite end if that spectrum would be something such as goldfish. Despite their relatively small size, due to their extreme bioload, even small goldfish require 10 gal. per fish, and those fish will have to be rehoused as they continue to grow ratio. So given the average bioload of the majority of aquarium inhabitants, the 1" per gallon rule is used to ensure that each fish has adequate resources in the aquarium so as to keep the nitrogen cycle in balance, to prevent any stress related illnesses due to overcrowding, and avoid issues such as fish being outcompeted for resources. Besides, you wouldn't be adding all of these fish in at once. When starting a new aquarium, generally one adds a number of fish equal to 10% of the tanks size (in your case 3). This number can be stretched a bit in certain circumstances on the first adding of fish (say to 5, in your case), such as a fully cycled planted tank that can readily handle the ammonia spike that occurs with the addition of new fish. Any fish that are added after this should continue to follow the 10% guideline and only after the fish have been quarantined in a separate tank so as to ensure they are not infected with anything that could potentially infect your entire aquarium it stress as well as to allow for a period to acclimate to new water parameters and a respite period before being added to a new environment with other inhabitants. All in all it's best to underload than to overload in order to ensure a healthy environment for the fish. As you add new fish be sure to monitor ammonia levels closely and look for signs of stress in the fish, those will be your ultimate guide in determining if you should add more fish it not.

 

[Monty2451]

Also, planted tanks are not dirty, they are the exact opposite. The entire point of having a planted tank is that plants are excellent at helping maintain tank health by fostering good bacteria, breaking down ammonia, they provide food for a variety of tank inhabitants, they also adda natural cover to help fish feel safe and stress free, as well as helping to oxygenate the water. Planted tanks are one of the few scenarios where a bioload can possibly be exceeded, but not by that much and not too quickly.

 

[Hyr]

Also, planted tanks are not dirty, they are the exact opposite. The entire point of having a planted tank is that plants are excellent at helping maintain tank health by fostering good bacteria, breaking down ammonia, they provide food for a variety of tank inhabitants, they also adda natural cover to help fish feel safe and stress free, as well as helping to oxygenate the water.

I don't think so. With planted tanks you can't gravel vac, be aggresive with algae, change the substrate, etc.. Not to say they aren't good, they just aren't particularly clean if you think about it. I was planning to qt 4 rainbows inside my 10 gallon, then the other 4, then 5 espei rasboras, and then the other 5. So a bit more than 10%, but I think my filter should be able to handle it. I will probably only add 1 fish in to the aquarium everyday though.

 

[Byron]

There are a couple of misunderstandings in this thread. First one is what individuals mean by "clean." Live plants that are growing do improve the water quality, and natural processes deal with organics much more effectively. Algae is not "dirty," it is an aspect of a natural system. An aquarium without algae is inevitably not very healthy for fish.

Second point is that live plants, with some fast growers included, will easily handle any increase in ammonia from adding fish. The only way this can fail is if one significantly overloads the system, and the numbers being mentioned in this thread will not come even close to that occurring. You could double and triple the load of fish (using those numbers of initial fish mentioned) without any issues. And this leads into the issue about the 1 inch per gallon or similar.

Calculators for fish numbers are rough guides at best, because it is impossible to take into account all the factors that play into it. The species if shoaling will have less effect on the biological system with more rather than fewer of that species (within reason--one can always overdo things obviously). The environmental factors (parameters, décor, different species, light, water movement as it relates to each species) are part of the equation; mixing species with differing requirements in any of these areas will increase their biological impact on the tank. And the aspects mentioned in post #4 by another member certainly factor in as well, but not in isolation.

Third, when adding a shoaling species, always add the entire intended group at the same time. The only time this may not be possible is if the source store does not have the number one intends. But otherwise, acquire all of the group together. There are several reasons for this. Primarily, all fish that are a shoaling species will settle in faster and be less stressed the more there are together. Secondarily, it allows the fish to establish their hierarchy within the group from the outset; this is more significant an issue with some species than with others, admittedly, but it is still relevant. There is much less chance a bully will develop, as such behaviours are often environmentally induced. ["Environment" here means every aspect/factor of the fish's living space from water parameters to décor to light to water current to numbers of fish to species.]

Another thing to keep in mind is that higher light, CO2 diffusion, and the daily nutrient supplementation needed to balance is going to affect the system--and the fish--much more than one might think. All of these raise the levels of chemistry and biology processes, and that means the water condition ands ultimately the fish. Don't lose sight of this.

 

[Hyr]

Algae is not "dirty," it is an aspect of a natural system.

Yes, I understand. I meant excessive algae, like an outbreak or something.

Second point is that live plants, with some fast growers included, will easily handle any increase in ammonia from adding fish. The only way this can fail is if one significantly overloads the system, and the numbers being mentioned in this thread will not come even close to that occurring.

That's what I thought originally, it should be able to handle the ammonia spike, if there even is one.

;pThird, when adding a shoaling species, always add the entire intended group at the same time.

Yeah, I thought that might help with hierarchy issues. Do you think I can keep 8 neon rainbows in a 10 gallon for 2 weeks, or should I consider getting a bigger tank?

Another thing to keep in mind is that higher light, CO2 diffusion, and the daily nutrient supplementation needed to balance is going to affect the system--and the fish--much more than one might think. All of these raise the levels of chemistry and biology processes, and that means the water condition ands ultimately the fish. Don't lose sight of this.

Yep. I know. I've decided to minimize each one of these factors.. I won't be planning on dosing nutrients everyday, atleast thats my conclusion at the moment. I am not even sure if I need co2 yet, I am currently deciding whether to go with easier plants. So, I suppose we'll see..

 

[Byron]

Do you think I can keep 8 neon rainbows in a 10 gallon for 2 weeks, or should I consider getting a bigger tank?

QT is not the same as permanent, obviously. The fish fro the store will most likely be juvenile, thus smaller, and for a few weeks this shouldn't be problematical. Floating plants covering the surface is a good idea; my QT is so think I have to push plants aside (or remove them) every day, just to feed the fish from the surface. This cover of floaters not only settles the fish faster, preventing ich often, but means there is no need for any form of cycling. Provided the plants are growing. My 20g QT runs permanently so I always have an established tank for new acquisitions, and I am certain it has saved a lot.

If you do have bright light and CO2, you will probably need daily liquid fertilization to balance.

 

[Hyr]

QT is not the same as permanent, obviously. The fish fro the store will most likely be juvenile, thus smaller, and for a few weeks this shouldn't be problematical. Floating plants covering the surface is a good idea; my QT is so think I have to push plants aside (or remove them) every day, just to feed the fish from the surface. This cover of floaters not only settles the fish faster, preventing ich often, but means there is no need for any form of cycling. Provided the plants are growing. My 20g QT runs permanently so I always have an established tank for new acquisitions, and I am certain it has saved a lot.

If you do have bright light and CO2, you will probably need daily liquid fertilization to balance.

Thanks, but just double checking, as we got off-topic, there isn't any issues with the stocking right?

 

[Byron]

Thanks, but just double checking, as we got off-topic, there isn't any issues with the stocking right?

I didn't address this directly because I was previously correcting what seemed to be misconceptions about stocking factors. So now, as you've asked directly...

Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish I take it is Melanotaenia praecox...10 should work; it doesn't appreciate bright conditions though, more here:
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/melanotaenia-praecox/

Espei rasboras, Trigonostigma espei, agree, 15 will work. Lots of floating plants for this shy fish or it will be pale and not at its best.

 

[Hyr]

I didn't address this directly because I was previously correcting what seemed to be misconceptions about stocking factors. So now, as you've asked directly...

Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish I take it is Melanotaenia praecox...10 should work; it doesn't appreciate bright conditions though, more here:
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/melanotaenia-praecox/

Espei rasboras, Trigonostigma espei, agree, 15 will work. Lots of floating plants for this shy fish or it will be pale and not at its best.

Yeah, I've been using seriouslyfish ever since it was recommended to me. One question they don't cover that I have is-- do they like high flow or low flow, or do they not care? I've read that they live in rivers and lakes in Indonesia, but mostly rivers. Are these rivers high flow? Low flow? Does it not matter? Thanks in advance.

 

[Byron]

Yeah, I've been using seriouslyfish ever since it was recommended to me. One question they don't cover that I have is-- do they like high flow or low flow, or do they not care? I've read that they live in rivers and lakes in Indonesia, but mostly rivers. Are these rivers high flow? Low flow? Does it not matter? Thanks in advance.

Citing from that profile on SF...

Tends to inhabit swiftly flowing tributaries off the main river, as well as surrounding swamps and marshes. The fish congregate around areas of aquatic vegetation, or submerged roots and logs.​

This says to me that the fish would prefer getting out of currents, thus it congregates around areas of aquatic vegetation (water always flows more slowly in such plant-thick areas) and submerged roots and logs (similarly, water movement is slower around obstacles). Then add the swamps and marshes aspect, and you have a fish that will be happy with a quiet flow.

I have a tank the same dimensions as you gave, and it is filtered with an Eheim Mini internal filter. This is rated for tanks up to 30 liters (say a 5 gallon) but in my 30g 3-foot tank, placed in the upper right rear corner, it is a good little filter. It is a motor and a sponge, nothing more. But the current moves along the back wall, hits the opposite end, and slows as it moves back across the front. My group of Black Ruby Barb in this tank seem to do very well.

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

I don't think it's one bit overstocked - anybody seen the size of Rasbora's - they barely count as fish at about 1/2" each rather than being counted as 1" each. They are also really boring - so for that reason I'd rethink it. For your community tank why not get a smaller number of schooled fish (Rasbora's do fine if you have 5 or so) and get more variety or skip the schooling entirely or just school one very large set of a single fish for a very impressive group.

Do you really want that many schooling fish - the issue I see is they all occupy the same space in the aquarium so they won't have room to school properly. Get ONE type of schooling fish.

The only reference I see to the Dwarf neon rainbow fish is that they grow to 3" long - re-think that choice, they do need a much bigger aquarium to school if they really are 3". Not because they are particularly overstocked but because they need a longer aquarium if they are going to share the same space as a Rasbora school (boring)

I know nothing about the size needs for shrimp.


Skip the schooling fish. Get some Corydoras (at least 3 of the smaller ones), get a couple of Dojo Loaches for fun (they are 4" but skinny rope fish) , Get a couple sets of Gourami's (I like to get them in pairs). The dwarf Gourami is stunning at 2" as is the full size powder blues at 3-4" ) - or get some tetra's instead. My bushnose Pleco (yellow with blue eyes or albino fish L-144) may be $10-$20 each but you will never have an algae issue ever. They do need places to hide since they are very shy. Slow growing, takes them several years to reach 4". Go to LiveAquaria.com and look at all the varieties and their diagram of what gets along with what. Do some research and get a fun tank instead of boring. I love schooling fish but you need so many to make a grand display - I would almost just get one variety and fill the entire aquarium - but when you're limited on space you may find that boring. Also think about where in the tank each kind of fish reside so they don't go bumping into each other. All of these are SUPER peaceful fish with similar water requirements (I didn't check hardness and I rarely worry about it - hasn't hurt a fish yet but I do check pH).

 

[Byron]

Get some Corydoras (at least 3 of the smaller ones), get a couple of Dojo Loaches for fun (they are 4" but skinny rope fish) , Get a couple sets of Gourami's (I like to get them in pairs). The dwarf Gourami is stunning at 2" as is the full size powder blues at 3-4" ) - or get some tetra's instead.

Corydoras catfish are shoaling fish and must have a group of five or more. This is a very social fish and it will be stressed otherwise.

Dojo loaches will not work here. For one thing they get too large, for another they need cooler water, and for another they will likely eat small fish.

Gourami I'd be careful of, esp the Dwarf which is a risk for iridovirus.