NTD - need confirmation & advice before euthanising entire tank

[wayfareranima]

Tank
What is the water volume of the tank? 224L
How long has the tank been running? Since March/April 2024
Does it have a filter? 4 sponge filters
Does it have a heater? Two, 50w and a 25w
What is the water temperature? 26*C
What is the entire stocking of this tank? Female guppies and endlers approx 20 + fry, exact quantity unknown.
8 Neon tetras
(Please list all fish and inverts.)

Maintenance
How often do you change the water? Weekly
How much of the water do you change? 50%
What do you use to treat your water?
Safe and Stability by seachem
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water?
Just the water as I have fine sand substrate,

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish?
Yes, but something has upset it, and the tank is cycling again.
What do you use to test the water? API masterkit.
What are your parameters?


We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.
Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:

pH: 7.5
NH3/NH4+: .50ppm
NO2-: .25ppm
NO3-: .50ppm
general hardness 100ppm

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish? Every day
How much do you feed your fish? No more than 30s of feeding time
What brand of food do you feed your fish? Dymax and pisces, some hikari
Do you feed frozen? Just bloodworms
Do you feed freeze-dried foods? Not often enough to be relevant

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish? January 2024
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms? Today
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms? Lumpy belly.
Have you started any treatment for the illness? No,
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase? No
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all? Not really, still fast swimming, eating schooling.

Explain your emergency situation in detail.
I have had these fish in with my female Betta in 80L for months with no issues. A couple of days ago, I decided to move them to my community tank and now all of them have a lump in their belly. One looks like a cyst, but can’t be sure.
I just need someone else to have a look at these fish before I kill everything in here.
Will the tank will need dismantling and bleaching to be safe for future use? Are all my guppies going to catch this and need to be euthanised? Can I save anyone here? Female betta never showed any illness, is happy and healthy.
Purchased at an aquarium specialty store, not a chain BB pet shop.

 

[Seisage]

Huh. I'm surprised you haven't noticed this in your neons before. Did you feed them a different sort of food before you noticed this? I see this "lumpy belly" in my neons all the time when I feed them dry foods. It's just their bellies getting full of food, and sometimes it creates lumps and bumps that look really concerning, like their stomachs are sunken-in! But they go back to normal in a few hours as the food digests.

Either way, I wouldn't jump so far as to say it's NTD. I'd give it at least a few days of additional monitoring, and even if it is an illness, I doubt it's NTD.
Edit: It's probably unrelated to the lumpy bellies, but definitely sort out that high nitrite level you've got there! Your tank may be adjusting to the new inhabitants and going through a mini-cycle. Regular small water changes daily or every other day should help it along.

 

[Colin_T]

I need clear pictures of the neon tetras but they don't appear to have neon tetra disease (NTD). NTD appears as a cream or white patch on the blue line in the middle of the body. Over a few days it spreads and the red and blue lines fade and the fish die. It's caused by a bacteria and comes in on newly imported fish. If you haven't added anything to the tank in the last month, it's unlikely to be neon tetra disease.

The fat belly is probably food and nothing to worry about.

My concern is the water quality. You have an ammonia and nitrite reading with a high pH that will make the ammonia more toxic. You need to do a 50-75% water change every day until the filter kicks back in and the levels drop to 0ppm.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.

If you use a mobile phone to film fish, hold the phone horizontally (landscape mode) so the footage fills the entire screen and doesn't have black bars on either end.

 

[wayfareranima]

What about the white cyst on the one neon? And yes, today bellies on everyone are back to normal? Thanks for advice guys, I am managing the mini cycle already, suspect I know the cause.

 

[Colin_T]

what white cyst?

 

[Seisage]

What about the white cyst on the one neon? And yes, today bellies on everyone are back to normal? Thanks for advice guys, I am managing the mini cycle already, suspect I know the cause.

Oh, yes, I see what you mean... I'm not sure what that is, honestly. I still wouldn't suspect NTD (it's honestly a rather uncommon disease, despite what the fearmongering about it would lead you to believe). I know this answer is generally unsatisfactory, and I hate hearing it myself, but my best suggestion is to simply keep an eye on it. Animals get benign cysts and tumors with surprising frequency, and until they begin to negatively impact the animal's ability to exist comfortably, they can usually be left alone.

If the cyst showed up very recently and suddenly, then that's a different story. In that case, I'd be thinking a potential injury. I'd say a prolapse of some sort, but it's too anterior for it to be coming from the anus.

 

[wayfareranima]

It was rather sudden, yes, wasnt there a week ago. I will isolate just him and see how he fares? Or will the stress of being alone be enough to freak him out?

 

[GaryE]

That's a huge jump to consider euthanizing a tank because of that. relax.

You could consider deworming, with something that works on both nematodes and helminth worms. I don't know what you can get in Australia.

I'd start with water changing though. The readings aren't ideal. If you know the cause, shoot for a solution. It may just be food.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

What about the white cyst on the one neon? And yes, today bellies on everyone are back to normal? Thanks for advice guys, I am managing the mini cycle already, suspect I know the cause.

Hiya!

Don't think we've met since I've been AWOL from the forum. Have just carefully read the thread, looked at the photos and video.

My suggestion & theory as concise as I can manage, all meant to be helpful and constructive criticism, I want to emphasis! Not putting you down at all, just pushed for time so have to bullet point for now, but can give more detailed suggestions later if you'd like them.


1. Fast the tank for a week. You're needed to dilute the ammonia/nitrites/nitrates via daily water changes, yet feeding the fish is only adding to the problem by producing more of all of those things, and the levels are way to high right now.

Don't worry that the fish will be hungry. Fish always ACT as if they haven't eaten in months at the slightest hint you'll feed them, but they will be absolutely fine - better, in fact, if you fast them for a week, and then drastically reduce the quantity of food you're adding. We're mammals which need to generate their own heat to maintain homeostasis; which is hugely energy demanding.

But fish are not mammals, and take their body temperature from the water they're in. Their metabolisms are different, and adjust to the water temperature as well. This means they can easily go 2-3 weeks without feeding by us, if the tank set up is right and established, and the fish are in good condition. So a one week fast won't harm them at all. They'll work off the bellies they had the other day


Then when you feed again, cut the amount you're feeding, and keep monitoring the water parameters. If ammonia or nitrites are present, water change ASAP. If nitrAtes are getting between 10-20pmm, water change.

Have some ideas about how you could improve filtration, water quality and help your not thriving live plants, add things that will reduce stress in the fish so they thrive more, and will also improve the tank look, if you'd like them, I can go into detail later?

Curious what substrate you're using as well? When and how do you clean the substrate at all?

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

It was rather sudden, yes, wasnt there a week ago. I will isolate just him and see how he fares? Or will the stress of being alone be enough to freak him out?

don't isolate him - it would stress the single neon a great deal, serve no purpose, and it doesn't look like anything contagious, so very unlikely any of the other fish are at risk.

Definitely no need to euthanise the tank! It's okay. And you have some very gravid female guppies ready to pop out fry any minute now, congratulations!

In general, neons sold in stores are now quite weak, even if they don't have fish TB. Lots of people having problems with ailing and generally not great or unhealthy neons now. Lots of people in the hobby switching to cardinals or other mid-water swimmers. But I didn't spot any other ailing fish.

Guppies highly likely to have come with worms - more likely than not, so I agree it's worth worming the tank, then QT'ing any new additions before adding to main tank. I now also worm any fish during their QT, especially livebearers.

ETA: But the water changes to reduce the ammonia/nitrites/nitrates much more urgent, so that should be first priority. Check the worming thread for specific ingredients needed in a med to eliminate both round and flatworms. A lot of the cheap wormers in stores and online are snake oil, and useless. Waste of money buying random ones, find the specific main ingredients that wipe them out.

 

[wayfareranima]

Thank you for your answers and your concerns guys.
I am doing 50% WC every second day atm, have been for a bit as I’m very aware of the dangers of fish in cycling. Just had to report current water parameters as it’s a pre-requisite of posting.
They have been wormed!
They’ve had two doses of levimasole per bottle instructions.
All of those plants are newly transplanted/cuttings from other tanks and are not yet established, most have only been in there a week, maybe two? So I am not too concerned about their appearance yet, but if they struggles to take off, I will take you up on that offer. Always happy to learn more.
Thanks again guys.
The cyst really freaked me out.

 

[wayfareranima]

I could play aquarium diagnosis roulette on the internets, but figured it was safer to just come and ask people, as lots of info online indicated it was NTD.

 

[Colin_T]

I found these pictures on the internet and show what neon tetra disease looks like. It's a bacterial infection and needs antibiotics to treat it. Infected fish die within a few days if left untreated.

The first 3 pictures are typical neon tetra disease.

.

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These next 2 pictures are another version of neon tetra disease. Both forms are caused by a bacteria and need antibiotics immediately otherwise the fish will die.

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This is the new virus that is affecting neon tetras and is identified by the puffy mouth/ lips. The fish in the picture has a fairly advanced case and the virus is preventing the fish from eating properly. Subsequently the fish is losing condition and shows damaged fins and excess mucous over its body. There is no cure for this virus and infected fish eventually die. If the fish has this virus and stops eating or can't eat properly, then it should be euthanised.

 

[Seisage]

I found these pictures on the internet and show what neon tetra disease looks like. It's a bacterial infection and needs antibiotics to treat it. Infected fish die within a few days if left untreated.

The first 3 pictures are typical neon tetra disease.
View attachment 344729.

View attachment 344730

View attachment 344731

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These next 2 pictures are another version of neon tetra disease. Both forms are caused by a bacteria and need antibiotics immediately otherwise the fish will die.
View attachment 344732

View attachment 344733

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This is the new virus that is affecting neon tetras and is identified by the puffy mouth/ lips. The fish in the picture has a fairly advanced case and the virus is preventing the fish from eating properly. Subsequently the fish is losing condition and shows damaged fins and excess mucous over its body. There is no cure for this virus and infected fish eventually die. If the fish has this virus and stops eating or can't eat properly, then it should be euthanised.
View attachment 344734

FYI, most of these pictures are simple columnaris. The white patches are telltale. Columnaris is often called "false NTD" because it is commonly mistaken for true NTD, which is caused by the microsporidian parasite Pleistophora hyphessobryconis. I suspect the confusion is due to the fact that microsporidian infections often cause lightening of tissues, which can look similar to the white patches caused by Flavobacterium columnare.

The two pics that you cite as being "another version" of NTD may very well be a true microsporidian infection and you can tell because the muscle tissue itself is lighter than the rest of the fish, although you can't positively ID it as P. hyphessobryconis without tissue analysis.

You can read more about NTD and other microsporidian infections here:

Mycotic Diseases of Fish - Exotic and Laboratory Animals - Merck Veterinary Manual

Learn about the veterinary topic of Mycotic Diseases of Fish. Find specific details on this topic and related topics from the Merck Vet Manual.

www.merckvetmanual.com

Additionally, while I can't speak for the cysts on the mouth of the neon in the last photo you showed, the damaged fins are fin rot caused by bacteria (not a virus), which can absolutely be treated with medication.