Nothing survives... out of ideas and about to break this tank down

[mad_tunes]

I was hoping things had slowed down and maybe levelled out, but I've seen the odd dead fish again recently so have done some pretty large (50%) water changes.
The few remaining fish seem happier afterwards, coming out and looking active like they sould be. At least for a day or two.

With no obvious signs of disease, I'm leaning toward my substrate being the issue.

I understand that these fancier substrates lower the pH over time.
Could it make sense that the substrate would lead to a reduction in pH over time, and water changes with my relatively hard tap water would drag the pH back up relatively quickly? I'd guess graphing it would look like a saw-tooth pattern.
I'll have to monitor pH and note when water changes are done too to confirm it.

Is that how it'd work, and could it be the issue?
If so, am I just guaranteed to have this issue when using this substrate? Where's my mistake?
Is it just the effects of the substrate vs hard tap water? Are they really best used with soft or RO water so pH is consistantly low?

I'll check its pH regularly over the next week or two and see what it shows. I've got a week off at the end of April, so that might be the best time for the big re-do and substrate change.
I like the idea of a black sand. Just got the find some over the next few weeks.

 

[Byron]

What is the substrate composition? Post a link to the data if you find it, or whatever. All substrates that are inert will allow the pH to lower naturally as the organics are broken down, but this is subject to the GH, KH and pH of the source water. What are these levels of the tap water on its own?

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I have got some Zeo-carb, that I hadn't thought to use. I'll put it in the filter over the weekend.

Yeah, I agree with Essjay, I don't think I'd use that one. I've tried the Curisorp, I only run it the once through a tank if I've bought the tank second hand and run it for a few weeks as I'm setting up the tank after I've cleaned and leak tested it outside! Just in case...

£300 worth of plants came from Aquairum Gardens in Huntingdon. Understand why you mentioned PMing, but I've got no real reason to think they're the problem. Their advice seemed great. I spent way too long in their shop fannying about with rocks and wood with only encouragement. They're the only place I've ever seen with mock tanks that are a few inches high, so you can play with a layout of their wood and their rocks in the shop before buying anything-a great idea. If it might tally with anyone elses bad experiences after buying though, it should be public.

The plants are definitely not the problem then! That place looks fantastic, and I'm deeply jealous that I don't have a store like that anywhere near me! I need to move up North. @Wills has a brilliant store like that near him too.
I checked their website, and it even notes that the plants are imported from the UK. From their website FAQ:


"Where do your plants come from?


We order in direct from our European suppliers every week. You can be sure our plants are of excellent quality as they are grown under optimal conditions by the like of Tropica and Aquaflora. We also hold our plants just like our producers do. This means they are held emersed in a temperature controlled humid environment, so you can be sure they are free from algae, healthy and vibrant.


How do you guarantee your plants to be algae free?

We hold our plants in the same way our producers do. In an emersed set-up, humid environment and with access to nutrient rich water at the roots. The result is high quality healthy plants bursting with life. As they are not submerged under water, the plants are free from any algae."
So the plants are not the problem! It's plants that are grown outside the EU in places like Indonesia that by law have to be treated with pesticides before they can come into the EU/UK. You're right that it shouldn't be private if there's a problem. It's buying cheap plant stems or bundles from places on Amazon that are selling trimmings etc cheap that you have to be wary of.

Here's some of the same batch that I ended up not using.
The bits that went in the tank had a scrub under hot water first.
View attachment 314821
View attachment 314822

Just me in the house. I do vape while in the front room with the two of the tanks, but not right next to them and it's not like I hotbox-it.

I was hoping things had slowed down and maybe levelled out, but I've seen the odd dead fish again recently so have done some pretty large (50%) water changes.
The few remaining fish seem happier afterwards, coming out and looking active like they sould be. At least for a day or two.

I like the idea of a black sand. Just got the find some over the next few weeks.

Unipac black limpopo sand is dark (without being fake looking black) and inert, and @seangee and I use it without problems. Check out the photos of his tanks and plants if you're worried about growing plants in it! They do well, and mine did too with the same sand:

And I still use it with my larger cories that can sift through it, like the bronzes and sterbai's. But I think the grain size is a bit too large for pygmy cories. For those guys, I use either the plain Argos play sand, which is cheap, inert, very fine, and aquarium safe. But only comes in normal "sand" colour.

The other very fine sands I've used for my pygmies are the Unipac silver sands - they have two varieties, but both light coloured I'm afraid! But they're fine enough for the pygmies to sift though and sit on, and seem to enjoy it! I use that sandy beach area in their tank to feed them.

When I did mine, i wasn't actually planning to get pygmies at the time, and the tank had gravel in it. I did plan to remove all that and rescape it, but as a temporary measure I removed half the gravel from the front, left the big tall established plants in gravel at the back, and added the unipac fine silver sand as a beach in the front half. Worked really well, pygmies thrived and bred, so I kept the substrate pretty much as is.

As you can see, they really like the sand, and all come out of hiding when I feed them over the sand half of their tank.

So I'm afraid the only sands I know of that are fine enough for pygmies to sift through are light coloured. The Unipac silver sands and the Argos one. There are dark ones that are inert like the Unipac Black Limpopo sand, but I haven't actually tried pygmies on it, but I personally think the grain size would be too big for them, and I'd go for the really fine light ones, personally. But @seangee has the same black limpopo sand and might disagree?

 

[Byron]

Light hue sand is best for cories, agree. Ian Fuller does not recommend black because it can affect the cories by having them attempt to darken their colour so they blend in more and thus feel safer.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Light hue sand is best for cories, agree. Ian Fuller does not recommend black because it can affect the cories by having them attempt to darken their colour so they blend in more and thus feel safer.

I did notice my bronzes and sterbai didn't show up so well on the darker coloured sand. I like a lot of plants, but also like some open area to feed them and for them to filter feed and frolic, lol.

 

[mad_tunes]

Current substrate is this
There's a spec sheet pdf linked to from there but its not in English.
I'll run it through Google translate when I'm not on my phone, see if it rings any alarm bells with you all. (Edit: the Spec sheet is really instructions for use. I can't find any real detail on what it's made of anywhere)
I think it's a pretty standard baked soil kinda stuff though.

Ive got dark/black sand in my two smaller tanks and do like the way it looks. Red cherry shrimp look good on it. Pygmy corys have seemed ok on it so far.
Light coloured sands can look good but just make me think beach more than river
Tbh Id like to make use of the substrate I've got if possible, as it wasn't particularly cheap.
It'd suck to tear it all apart and recreate the same issue though, if the substrate is part of tthe problem.
Might half-do it and cover the fancier stuff with sand. they might settle the wrong way round over time though. dunno, haven't made my mind up yet.

Found some pretty fine Limpopo black sand in a local shop this afternoon, if I go with black sand it'll probably be that.

 

[Wills]

Interesting that you’ve said you live near aquarium gardens - I know from George farmers videos (also probs local to you too) he has really hard water.

I’m not familiar with your soil but they are much more active near the start so you could be right that it’s dropping your ph through the week then you are causing a ph and hardness shock to the fish when you do a water change.

One bit of advice but it might be tough now you have fish but embrace harder water fish look up lake inle and krabi provence biotopes for good planted tank options some are easy to find.

Though an other thing to mention after doing planted tanks for a few years I’ve finally decided to lean into hard water and move to Malawi and Tanganyikan tanks, you can still take the aquascaping principles to that part of the hobby too - though not plants. But you can still take inspiration from nature with your hard scape and materials choices. And you can keep fish that truely thrive in hard water and get a lot of stunning colours, I found them intimidating for years but a bit of reading and talking to people has calmed that down.

 

[mad_tunes]

Thanks.
I'm about an hour away from Aquarium gardens, so our waters could be quite different?
The water where I am is meant to be quite hard, but I'm still clinging to the fact that they all do OK in my smaller tanks.

There's something different about the larger one. The water going into them all is the same, so it seems like it's got to be the substrate, rocks, wood or some kind of bug that's in it.

Up until the last few weeks I used to find a lot of black dust in the filter.
I haven't seen it floating around in the tank, but rinsing the filter media would leave the water looking really black and kinda sooty.
Last couple of times I've rinsed it there's been much less black and just normal brown gunk.
When I gravel vac the substrate, I would get a bunch of the same black dust. That's been less the last couple of times I've done water changes too.

Instructions for the substrate say don't rinse it, so I didn’t. That might have been my mistake.
Maybe it's just been the substrate being way over the top for a few months, in some way I can't see with the tests I can do.

The remaining few fish have been doing a bit better since I did a ~50% water change last weekend. I can see a few fish swimming around pretty normally as I type this, which is really good to see.
There are very few left now, but I've not seen more bodies over the last week.
I don't want to speak too soon but maybe things are looking up a little

There are a couple left in one of my smaller tanks that I didn't catch when I last moved a batch into the big one. I might get them moved and see how they do. If they do OK, maybe I could avoid pulling it all apart

 

[seangee]

Hmmm, just read the "spec sheet" you linked. My French is poor but I would have expected to see some reference to fish somewhere and I did not. They did reference shrimp in the FAQ but I got the impression that was to try to flog a different product.

One way or another I would be nervous of anything that gives off black dust that could go into the gills of my fish

 

[Unknownfuture]

You sound like you’ve had a nightmare. After a mass fish die out where I’ve been at a loss before I’d drain aquarium scrubs the hell out of it. When I’m happy with that I’d set it up and cycle it bare bottom tank nothing in apart from some hiding places for fish. Add the fish and observe. Then gradually add what you want and observe weeks after each addition. It’s a long drawn out process.

Wish you the best of luck

 

[mad_tunes]

Thanks. Feels a bit like it.
When's the 'sit back and enjoy the thriving tank Ive created' start?

Good suggestion that makes a lot of sense, but I've got a tank full of plants to keep going at the same time.

After the last big water change though, the remaining fish don't seem to be dong so bad. I can see a sparkling grouami and a pygmy cory dancing around together as I type.
It's tempting to just let things carry on as normal from here. They've looked OK at a few different points since I set it up though, so I really don't trust they'll stay that way.

My best guesses so far are either something about the wood, or the sooty stuff I kept finding in the filter from the substrate.

During my week off at the end of the month, I'll do something like:
Move the few remaining fish and any shrimp to another tank
Pull it all apart
Put plants in a large tub I've borrowed, along with a heater and airstone to keep things moving a little.
Rinse the substrate thoroughly
Boil wood in a big stainless pan thing I've borrowed, then attack it all with a stiff brush & rinse
Brush/scrub filter & pipework, inline heater and CO2 defuser with water that's as hot as I dare without melting anything.
Kill everything in the filter media with boiling/hot water
Spray the inside of the tank with white vinegar. Should kill anything that's left and be safe after a good rinse.
Try to polish out a couple of annoying scratches I've put in the front glass, rinsing well afterwards.
Put it back together, with a bunch of that 'start things immediately' stuff.

I may well use the current subtrate along the back and sides, with dark sand in the middle and maybe along the front. I do like how it looks and it'd be better for the corys.

 

[Byron]

I used "Translate" to read the link on the "soil." It does not seem to say just what is in it, other than it is volcanic soil from Japan. I have no reliance in any so-called "plant" substrate, and there is always the bacterial issue especially for substrate fish (cories were mentioned). I would not use this.

 

[mad_tunes]

I'm not really decided yet. Just got a bit of £ in it, that's all.
It was recommended by Aquarium Gardens or I probably would have gone with something more simple to begin with.

I'm honestly not disagreeing with good advice, just find it hard write off a whole type of substrate that's commonly pushed as great for planted tanks. Good money's charged for this kinda stuff, y'know. I guess people charge for unsuitable or rubbish stuff all the time though.

The hardness changes I've seen are probably due to the substrate, which does add to the change it argument.

I really do like the look of darker substrates over the more beach-sand sort of colours.
I had a look around some local shops over the weekend and the best I found was the darkest of these: https://www.unipacpet.co.uk/aquatic/aquarium-sand/

They list it as 1000µ to 1200µ in size though, which I guess might be larger than is ideal?
What's the best away to make sure plants have something to feed off in the substrate? Root tabs and mulm over time?

 

[Byron]

What's the best away to make sure plants have something to feed off in the substrate? Root tabs and mulm over time?

Yes. Substrate tabs for larger plants, and a comprehensive liquid for all plants. Aquatic plants take in various nutrients via the roots than via the leaves. It takes about a year for an inert substrate to become as good as any. I have never had issues with inert fine gravel in the very old days, or my play sand for the past decade or more.

I tried a plant substrate once, it was a total waste of money. Within one week I had to remove the cories because they had already lost barbels and one even had about a quarter of its lower jaw sliced off. None of this occurred previously. And when I moved them to another tank with plays and, they all recovered though the one with the missing lower jaw part did look comical. But he was able to eat and lived many years since. I dumped the substrate in a hole in the back garden and got a bag of Quikrete Play Sand. You are in the UK so you have Argos Play Sand which other members have said is quality sand.

The link is taking forever to load, this has been occurring with other sites too. When I can see it I will have a look. Thee sands will be considerably more expensive than a bag of play sand.

 

[seangee]

If you decide on black limpopo sand check the swelluk site for their own brand. IMO its nicer than the unipac, a bit finer and needs much less rinsing. Someone may well come along and tell me its the same stuff in different packaging but that's my perception. I have around 30 corys (paleatus and sterbai) that have lived on it for around 8 years. IRO @Byron's comments about colour I did notice the c.paleatus change from brown to dark grey in the first few months after switching to the dark substrate (I had Argos play sand before). They are quite nicely camofluaged but I have no problem seeing them, and the tank has quite a lot of green in it too.