Not Yet A Disaster, But....

[LauraFrog]

AFF will not fix this because it is bacterial, you really need antibiotics ASAP or you're probably going to lose more fish. Tetracycline/oxytet, or erythromycin/streptomycin/endomycin/kanamycin - any of those will work. It's definitely bacterial and it sounds like a bad strain of columnaris. Antibiotics are the only thing with a hope of curing it.

Loaches are scaleless fish, and AFF (going on the name) probably contains malachite green/methylene blue/acriflavine - scaleless fishes are sensitive to all of these and they will not like being in a tank at full dosage (most of these meds actually say to halve the dosage for fry, scaleless fish or tetras.) It shouldn't kill them, but I doubt it will get rid of the columnaris. Antibiotics, immediately, and you've got a chance of saving the fish that are sick. You'll need to put it through the tank anyway in order to kill this, because otherwise it's probably going to run through your entire stock. I recommend dosing ammo-lock or stress zyme while you treat with antibiotics, and you probably will need to clone your other filter. They don't discriminate about which bacteria they kill.

Most antibiotics can be dissolved in water and I've had good results on columnaris and septicaemia causing bacteria on tetracycline. Sorry to hear about this... good luck.

 

[Devorax]

UPDATE

Boris died, he ended up pineconing and at 2am there was nothing else we could do, so had to turn off the lights and say goodbye.
RIP Boris

Umm,The mollie that had clamped fins in now behaving normally, a couple of the other fish are behaving as normal, but most are pretty static in the water, with mouth breathing too. The AFF didn't have any warnings on it about half-doses for scaleless fish so that is why it had a full dose, the fry don't seem to care anyway. The Clown loaches are laying around alot though.

Looks like I'm going to have to go to the vets then. I'll show them this thread if they doubt me. Cheers guys, but I have a heavy heart today. Time to tear a new *%$# for the manager me thinks.

 

[LauraFrog]

Realistically it may not be their fault if they did not know the fish were sick when sold, this is why most reputable establishments quarantine new shipments but sometimes it is just not possible. Go to the vets and get the antibiotics, it's the only way you're going to save the rest of the fish. Sorry to hear about Boris

 

[Devorax]

In the space of an hour, a neon has developed white patches on either side of it's body, where the red and blue normally meet. The area is no devoid of colour. Since the disease is spreading and we are going to the LFS the sick fish came from, we are going to bag this neon and use it to try to get the LFS to pay for meds from the vets next door to them. Decency says they should, but I find it unlikely. Worth a go though. Does anyone know the doseages for tetracycline? Just in case I am successful and the vet doesn't know?

EDIT Just noticed a yellow tailed guppy now has clear edging to his tail, like a cellophane 'butterfly' edging

 

[Devorax]

Does anyone know anything about Maracyn Plus? I can get some from the US, but not sure if it's the ones mentioned (maracyn1 &2) on here often.

 

[WILDER]

Do a water change and run some black carbon to get the med out.

Till you get the antibiotic turn the temp down by two degrees for now.

OLUMNARIS
The hospital tank should be heated to approx. 74 degrees. 76 and above is the ideal breeding temperature for columnaris. Though there is some dispute over lowering the temperature, my experience has been that 72 is too low for the medication to work rapidly, 76+ causes the disease to breed more rapidly than the anti-biotic can kill, and 74 is "just right." Remember to keep this temperature stable!

 

[Devorax]

The shop promised to replace any lost fish, when this all clears up. They also gave me Ektol Cristal to use. It states it is active against columnaris. Does anyone know anything about this med? It's made by JBL and it's actives are

Tosylchloramide sodium 4.8%
Sodium percarbonate 3%
di-Sodium tetraborate 0.3%
Potassium Chlorate 0.2%

They swear by it, saying they use it on their fish. Thoughts?

 

[WILDER]

JBl meds are normally quite good but never heard members use jbl ektol to much.
Scroll down the page to the med it can take a while.
[URL="http/www.jbl.de/dl_documents/uk/uk_WWW4.pdf"]http/www.jbl.de/dl_documents/uk/uk_WWW4.pdf[/URL]

This is the only member I've known to use the med ektol.
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showto...p;#entry2351238

 

[WILDER]

I've used jbl furanol but that wipes the beneifical bacteria out in the filter.

 

[Devorax]

I went back to the shop, and got a mixed response. I am quite sure the manager understood that I was telling the truth, but he was at a loss to explain it, because the very tank that the Fancy Guppies came from was a picture of perfect health.
Nonetheless, he assured me he will replace the lost fish when the problem passes over. He also gave me free medicine, called Ektol Cristal from JBL. It's actives are

Tosylchloramine sodium 4.8%
Sodium percarbonate 3%
disodium tetracarbonate 0.3%
Potassium chlorate 0.2%

They swear by it with their own fish, and it does state it attacks columnaris and finrot etc. Tonight I followed it's instructions to the letter whilst doing a further 66% water change and following Wilder's advice dropped the temp to 23-24c. The fish are all immediately happier visibly, with the exception of one mollie that remains 'not right'. She is a lot more active than 3 hours ago, but her mouth region is very vewry pink. Still no other fry have died, but we do expect to lose the shrimps and snails as this medicine is toxic to them apparently, but they too have to be treated in case they become carriers.
If anyone else has any thoughts/ideas/comments, please feel free.

EDIT Sorry for double post, but I am tired and this has gotten me down, plus I simply forgot I'd already said all this before

 

[WILDER]

Remove the dead shrimp and snails as snails can become toxic to fish when they start to rot.
Glad things look abit brighter but still got along way to go.
Keep up all updated on there progress.
Did you increase aeration with the med.
Good Luck.

 

[Devorax]

By way of aeration, I have turned the Juwel's filter outlet upwards to cause major surface movement, almost like a fountain effect. We have what sounds like a permanent tap leak now in our living room....lol

Well, all things considered, I think I can be quite optimistic right now. All the shrimp are still alive. There was a while when they were behaving with symptoms of nervous poisoning, but now they have settled down around the air column, presumably due to the slightly higher oxygen content there. The snails too have slowed down, but they are still alive, one even laid some eggs last night. I think they are all going to be okay, they are probably just detesting the water quality for them at the moment.

All of the fish seem better, although the 3 new Clown Loach juveniles are behaving quite sick, but then they never looked right to start with. No fish have died, no-one is newly ill, although the mollie fry at 6 weeks old are turning grey all over (they were previously white).
I am quite optimistic now, although I doubt I will never have a betta in this tank again, it wouldn't be right, and probably impossible.
Thanks to everyone for their thoughts.

Edit Also, since adding the meds, we have a caviar looking collection of something black in the back corner (fish eggs?) and some definite eggs laid by a different species in the gravel that are brown, slightly bigger than the average 'whitespot' spot. So it can't be all bad in there now.

 

[WILDER]

The member who used the same med as you jbl ektol is pleased with the results.
Will go and get the reply for you.
Do any of the clown loaches look thin.

His last reply.
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=281827
Lets us know how you get on with the med as can suggest it to other members.

 

[Devorax]

Unfortunately yes, two in particular look painfully thin, but then they did when we got them (at the same time as the sick Fancy Guppies that started all this off), and one in particular is also deformed in appearance, ie looks too long and has a curved spine.

I think we bought 'bad' fish, but we were so keen to get our loner a couple of friends that we failed to consider their condition, we just looked at how they were moving around and they were so, they came home with us. Since all their CLs were looking the same, we did think that was normal for very young CLs. But some articles I have read all say juvenile CLs should not be thin. Maybe they need seperate feeding to beefen them up.

 

[WILDER]

Skinny desease in clown loaches is an internal parasites.
Wormer plus med.
[URL="http/www.bollmoraakvarieklubb.org/artikl...own%20loach.htm"]http/www.bollmoraakvarieklubb.org/artikl...own%20loach.htm[/URL]

Curved spine can be old age, fish tb, internal parasites, vitamin defiency, Injury, Birth defect.
What does it look like when the fish go to the toilet.

Taken from the link.

Loss of weight or "skinny disease" is also quite common in Clown loaches. Typical symptoms are loss of weight and behaviour known as "knifeback" even though the fish is acting and eating normally. This sickness is more difficult to treat, it comes from a parasite organism (spironucleus) in the intestines of the same type that is thought to cause the so called "discus disease". I have successfully removed this disease from newly imported fish by using Spirohexol from JBL in the form of tablets. I have taken one tablet and crushed it and dissolve it in as little water as possible. I have then used discus granules which have been soaked in the solution. It becomes like a thick porridge after a short time when the food has drawn in the liquid. I then feed this to the sick fishes, after a week it looks like the sickness is gone. For the best possible effect do not feed with any other food. Flagyl (Metronidazole) also helps fight against this sickness but at least here in Sweden it is on prescription and can be a little difficult to come by.



Apart from this Clown loaches are not more susceptible than other fish, the above sickness usually occurs in fish that have been stressed during transport or subjected to other stress factors like cold water or poor aquarium hygiene. Do not buy fish that look emaciated! Well looked after fish are seldom sick. To quote my friend Elisabeth Hallberg; "the best way to avoid sickness is to keep the fish healthy".