Not So Peaceful Gouramis

[Brujah]

I bought an aqarium about a month ago. I gave it about three weeks to cycle before putting anything in it at all. Then (after doing several water checks) I put in two Powder Blue Dwarf Gouramis (a male and a female). I didn't just buy a "pretty" fish, I read several profiles on the fish to learn it's optimum temperature and water condition, and I've set the tank to that. Then I decided that the tank was still a little empty. So yesterday, I bought to Marble Angels and took all the nessecary precautions (floating them in the bag, double checking the water, making sure they are compatible with the Gouramis) and put them in the tank.

This seemed to have really set off the Gouramis, but more the female than the male. She was nipping at the Angels keeping them in one corner of the tank. The Angels were definitely very shy and stayed in their corner for the most part, but wouldn't eat last night either (I offered frozen Bloodworms and Premium Flake food and they never went after it).

This morning I wake up and one of the Angels is on its side breathing very heavily. I check the water and everything is within the ranges still, and the only thing I can figure is that the Gouramis must have attacked it last night while I was sleeping. I tried to move it and it swam for just a second, but then took a nosedive straight back to the bottom of the tank. Now the other Angel is sitting there staring at it and won't go anywhere near the Gouramis.

I figure I'm going to lose the Angel and there isn't a whole lot I can do about it. If there IS I would really appreciate the help, but I don't know if it's too late or not. When I read up on the Gouramis every profile I read said that they were peaceful, even shy, fish, but these two seem to be aggresive towards even each other. Is there a way to calm them down so I don't have to lose any future fish? I want a breeding pair of Marble Angels but if the Gouramis are going to nip everything they see I don't see much of a chance of getting the Angels past their small stage. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.

1. Water parameters. (Nitrate - 0, Nitrite - 0, Total Hardness - Around 75, Total Alkalinity - Around 125, pH - 7.0)
2. A full description of the fishes symptoms (did so above).
3. How often you do water changes and how much (20% change every week).
4. Any chemicals and treatments you add to the water (pH 7.0 Seachem Neutral Regulator and Microbe-Lift Special Blend).
5. What tank mates are in the tank (2 small Marble Angels and 2 small Powder Blue Dwarf Gouramis).
6. Tank size (10 Gallons).
7. Finally Have you recently added any new fish? (Yes, the two Angels)

 

[havefreshwatergettingsaltwater]

add stess coat water conditioner,remove the gouramis or the angelfish.if you have a quarantine tank,put the angel in there.if you dont have a q tank,i suggest you get one,5 gallons,a few decorations.

 

[Brujah]

I got a divider for my aquarium and seperated the Angelfish from the Gouramis. Sadly (as expected) the Angel didn't make it. I got another Marble Angel while I was out getting the divider and Stresscoat. I placed it in with the other Angel and so far things seem to be fine. The two Angels are getting along thus far and seem a lot happier and the Gouramis can't get to them at all. It's really disappointing to me that when I read about the Powder Blue Dwarf Gouramis on other sites (I just found this forum this morning in panic) they were listed as peaceful community fish because this certainly doesn't seem to be the case at all.

 

[kat and james]

we had problems with gouramis and angels also. the gourmais we had were golden gouramis, and paradise fish. the paradise fish (which is a gourami) attacked the angels at night, destroying thier fins, which resulted in them not being able to swim, and therefore dying. we couldn't figure out who was doing this, as we had been assured that these fish were 'perfect for a community tank', and these attacks were going on at night.

we eventually figured it out, and eded up taking the gouramis and paradise fish back to a shop. it looks like you will have to do the same thing also,unless you are happy keeping them seperate!

 

[Brujah]

Thanks, I think I'm just going to leave them divided for now. I'm going to get a much bigger tank in a month or so, at least 55 Gallons then I'll probably either leave the Powder Blue Dwarf Gouramis in the 10 Gallon by themselves or find a new home for them. I really hate getting rid of them because they are a great fish to look at, but I wasn't expecting nearly this much trouble from them (I've kept less aggresive Tiger Barbs).

Are there any fish that truly are compatible with Gouramis? There are other Gouramis that I would like to keep in the future 55 Gallon tank with my Angels (More the Opaline Gourami than any other), but if it will have the same problems that will simply not be happening.

 

[sylvia]

Your problem is not the gouramies - it's the tank's size. Angels need a minnimum of 30 for a pair and each male gourami should have 10 gallons to itself with about 5 gallons per female. If the fish don't feel crowded, they won't feel threatened and won't become aggressive. I realise you're planning to get a larger tank and that these fish are still small but it doesn't make the gouramies feel any better. Keep in mind that angels and gouramies occupy the same area in the tank so the gouramies feel the angels are tresspassing on their territory. I'd also suggest you don't keep the pair of gouramies in the 10 as the male will harass the female - you can move them to the 55 with the angels, they'll be fine there if you also add a couple more female dwarfs.

Also, you say your nitrAte is 0 - what's your ammonia? NitrAte isn't 0 unless your tank is extremely heavily planted or - and this is what I'm worried about - still in the stage of the cycle where it's experiencing an ammonia spike. If you do have ammonia, that's what bothered the angel.

I also want to add that you can't compare dwarf gouramies to gold gouramies or to paradisefish. Gold gouramies are a color morph of the three-spot gourami (so are opalines BTW) and are known to get rather aggressive. The males, especialy, won't do well if they are with fish that look similar, are closely related or that are likely to compete over territory. Though these CAN be kept with angels, the angels should be fully grown, the gouramies predominantly female with just one male at most and the tank large enough to accomodate all these fish and their territories. As for paradisefish, these are nippy and a terrible choice to keep with anything long-finned. Males will often fight each other to the death - just like bettas - and are also aggressive towards other fish. Females can be kept together and are reasonable semi-boisterous community fish but are themseleves prone to being nipped- often turning round and nipping back

Dwarf gouramies are one of the more peaceful commonly available species. Once the angels are grown and start pairing up, the tables will undoubtedly turn and you'll find the gouramies are the ones being bullied. As long as the tank is reasonably well furnished, the gouramies should be able to find places to hide. Still, do watch them to ensure they aren't having difficulty reaching the water's surface to breed and getting their share of food. I also suggest you add a couple more females when you move them to the larger tank - this will both distract them from the angels and keep the male from harassing a single female whilst the angels grow and also reduce aggression towards a single gourami from the angels once the angels are mature.

 

[Brujah]

The nitrate could be closer to 20 than 0. I got a 5 in 1 strip set that the pet store owner said had "everything you really need to test for", so I really don't know what the ammonia is at and I just spent the rest of my money on the Stresscoat, divider, and Angel. The color change between 0 nitrate and 20 is very small so it's hard to tell, but it's definitely not ANY higher than 20.

I realized that once the Angels got bigger (I know they get MUCH bigger than they are now) that they would need more space and a bigger tank. That's why I was planning on getting a 55 Gallon in about a month, but I'm going to do my best to get one ASAP now.

Some of these fish rules are misleading if having only these four small fish in a 10 Gallon tank is overcrowding. None of the fish are bigger than 1 1/2 inches, and I was told (once again by the pet store owner whom I will not be asking for advice anymore) that as long as I had one gallon of water for one inch of fish I'd be fine and to just get a bigger tank as they got bigger.

Thanks a ton for the advice and I'll be getting something better for these guys just as soon as possible.

 

[Lynden]

My cousin Riley had a dwarf gourami in with Pirahnas, and the dwarf gourami beat them up, until it was boiled from the heater one day The pirahna lived, although its ego probably did not
Pirahnas are named the worlds most ferocious fish. Aint so mighty now, are we pirahnas

 

[akudewan]

My cousin Riley had a dwarf gourami in with Pirahnas, and the dwarf gourami beat them up, until it was boiled from the heater one day The pirahna lived, although its ego probably did not
Pirahnas are named the worlds most ferocious fish. Aint so mighty now, are we pirahnas

You're kidding, right? I mean, pirahnas are known to bite the hand that feeds them, literally.

And the gourami got BOILED on the heater?? I bet it was an elaborate assasination plot by the pirahnas.

 

[emma12321]

You said you did you research right? so what possessed you to put angels which can get nearly the size of a dinner plate in a 10 gallon tank? They are cichlids and so need to establish territories be careful when you get your 55 gallon what tankmates you choose as an angels natural food are neons so you are going to have to get the bigger tetras as tank mates.

Emma

 

[Bre_B]

Emma, Brujah already said "I realized that once the Angels got bigger (I know they get MUCH bigger than they are now) that they would need more space and a bigger tank. That's why I was planning on getting a 55 Gallon in about a month"

 

[emma12321]

So why not wait until the bigger tank is cycled rather than putting them in a smaller tank. A lot of people intend to upgrade and never get round to it.

edit : i had read the part about the 55 gallon as you will see from my post.

Emma

 

[sylvia]

Over-looking all the above coments, the 'inch per gallon' GUIDELINE ( alot of people reffer to it as rule which drives me insane ) is only so accurate. Firstly, it reffers to ADULT sizes. Fish grow slower (and also die younger!) if in cramped conditions so you should go by the adult size. You should also go by the adult size because 'planning to upgrade' isn't always a responsible way to go about things. Also, that guideline reffers to tiny, low-waste prooducing fish - things like neon tetras - not messy cichlids like angels. Lastly, and most importantly, it does not take into acount behaviour. It's all well saying a couple of 12" oscars could live in a 24 gallon (ignore the fact that oscars are poop machines in this example) but they'll also kill each other because they need to have seperate territories. In a similar manner, the gouramies are territorial and require a specific amount of space. Regardless of their current size, they still need that space and they will still feel threatened (even by 1" angels) if other fish are constantly invading that space. If you give them the space they need, they are very peaceful, shy fish.

One last thing - NEVER take advice from an LFS. ALWAYS research what you're getting beforehand, get advice and information from several sources and set up a tank that can accomodate everything when they have all matured. I don't blame you for taking the LFS's advice BTW, don't misunderstand me - it is normal to expect them to be reliable. I'm just telling you that they are not so you can take any advice with a grain of salt in future.

 

[osteoporoosi]

How did you cycle the tank? As sylvia wrote, sounds like your angel is suffering from an intoxication.

 

[Brujah]

I cycled with a group of 5 zebra danios that ended up dying, but the readings all looked good at that time (minus an ammonia test which I didn't and still don't have). I took some of my water to the pet store to have it tested after they died and they said it was good to go "just add some water conditioner" (Once again...I won't be taking any more advice from a pet store). After the first of my Angels died the other day and I got the divider and all of that I took another sample of my water into a different pet store (that specializes in fish) and they said my ammonia was off the charts. I've remedied this by doing water changes every day (30% day one, 25% every day since). Sadly, another of the Angels didn't make it, but the remaining 2 Gouramis and 1 Angel look great now. They are all swimming and eatting and seem to be happy. No discoloration at all or fin rot. I'm going to take another sample up there tomorrow (they do water tests for free) and hopefully it will be much lower. The tank readings that I can check here have changed slightly, but not much. NitrAte - Somewhere between 0 and 20 (closer to 20), NitrIte - 0, Total Hardness (ppm) - Around 80, Total Alkalinity/Buffering Capability (ppm) - Around 120, pH - Somwhere between 6.8 and 7.0, Temp - Steady 78 F

As for the comment about why put the Angel in a 10 Gallon tank. Because I was going by the inch/gallon GUIDELINE. Like I said it will be moved into the 55 Gallon tank after I purchase and cycle it. I think the real problem was that the zebra danios died before my tank was fully cycled and the pet store wanted to sell me fish so they said it would be fine.

Thanks for all the help. I'm really new to this (I've only had one tank before and it was more my dads than my own) so it's nice to see that there are people out there that aren't just trying to sell you something.