Not Again, Please Not Again

[kribensis12]

What is going on? I have never had this disease properly diagnosed. I am absolutley tired of it. It is killing my fish, and has been since I've started keeping them and there isnt a .... thing I can do about it. I've tried Kanaplex (internal and external bacterial med), Quick Cure (external parasite med), Copper Safe (similaar to quick cure), salt, Mela and Pimafix, internal parasitic medicated food, just aobut anything that might work. And none of it has. It killed 3 of my swordtails, and has just killed one of my guppies. The others, though showing no signs of it, will start to in a few days.

Description:
Fish gets a little white mark, almost like a dead scale or two on it's body. That is there for about a week, then starts growing, into a tumor like apendage on the fish. It's all white and looks like the scales are exploding in the immeadiate area. Then, the fish starts pooping red poop.Their lower part of their abdomen starts to turn a reddish color. Then, they stop eating and within the next 24-48 hours are dead. They just waste away. I couldn't get a pic of the guppy in the tank, so I pulled her out to take the pic.
Here is a full body pic:

In this pic, you can cleary see the red:

In this one, right in front of the tail, on the opposite side of the white flash is, is where the white growth was located:

Please help! It's diseases like this which make me question if I wan't to even be in the hobby.

 

[erk628]

Do you get all our fish at the same place?

 

[Mayu]

The pics aren't extremely clear... but could your fish have an internal parasite called Camallanus? Perhaps what you think is red poop could actually be a red worm...

What are your water levels at? (Nitrate, Nitrite and Ammonias)?

 

[WILDER]

Were not vets. We just try and point you in the right direction.
I would bag a dead fish up and take it to a vet for tests.The only way you will know what's going off it getting professional help.

Need to rule out fish tb.
How long did you treat for the camallanous worms.

I have never had any luck with guppys myself.
If you really want to keep livebearers I wouldn't buy them from the lfs.
I would find a good breeder of them.

 

[Mayu]

Fish TB is something I thought about myself... but doesn't it cause a deformity of the body? One fish I saw that had known TB looked like someone squished him into an accordian shape before he died...

And the "red poop" makes me wonder if it isn't a red worm, which would be Camallanus. The pics are too blurry to really see what's going on with the fish. I can see the red belly... While really rare since it mostly effects Marine or brackish water fish, the bacterial disease, Vibriosis, CAN infect tropical fish.

Vibriosis will cause red or dark spots on the ventral area of an effected fish... I saw a pic of one fish that had a similar reddening of the belly that was diagnosed with Vibriosis. But that brings me back to the red poop which makes me suspicious of Camallanus.

The best thing to do is like Wilder said, take a dead fish to a vet who knows about aquarium fish, and test the water to check to see if any of the Ammonia, Nitrate or Nitrate levels are off.

 

[WILDER]

She treated her fish for camallanous worms.
With the on going problems it could be more than internal parasites.
Once fish are infested with them the recovery not looking so good. As the parasites do damage to the organs.

Red patches on the tummy area or bleeding beneath the skin is septicemia.

Vibrosis



Symptoms:

The signs of vibriosis are similar to many other bacterial diseases of fish. They usually start with lethargy and a loss of appetite. As the disease progresses, the skin may become discolored, red and necrotic (dead). Boil-like sores may appear on the body, occasionally breaking through the skin surface resulting in large, open sores. Bloody blotches (erythema) are common around the fins and mouth. When the disease becomes systemic, it can cause exophthalmia ("pop-eye"), and the gut and rectum may be bloody and filled with fluid. It should be noted that all of these "signs" can be caused by other bacterial diseases, and are not proof of a Vibrio infection.



Cause:

The bacterium Vibrio parahaemolyticus. Vibrio bacteria are common in the gut of healthy fish, however, stress can give these bacteria a foothold and allow them to spread rapidly. If they are allowed to reproduce unchecked, they can cause the above symptoms in their host. Under certain conditions, the bacteria may be capable of crossing the intestinal wall, resulting in a systemic infection.



Treatment:

Before beginning treatment, ensure that the water quality and your aquarium maintence routines are good. Removal of underlying problems is essential to successful therapy. Often, improving the water quality will be sufficient to control the infection. Notwithstanding, it is strongly recommended that you treat the fish with medicated food containing either Terramycin or Romet. Terramycin contains the antibiotic oxytetracycline and is sold for fish in a sinking feed and should be fed for 10 days. Romet is a potentiated sulfonamide which contains two drugs, sulfadimethoxine and ormetoprim. It is sold for fish in a floating feed and should be fed for 5 days. Either drug will be effective if the strain of Vibrio is sensitive to it and if sick fish ingest enough medication to maintain the drug in the bloodstream throughout the treatment period. Alternatively, these medications could be delivered by injection instead via food.

 

[paulbr1]

Hi, I couldn't see your pics properly - but have a look at this http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=272265&st=0&p=2255585&fromsearch=1&#entry2255585

This was a similar sounding problem, I thought it was and treated for white spot initially - it killed loads of my fish but Wilder pointed me in the right direction "Anchor Worm".

Have a look if it is I used "Parazin" and it saved the rest of my stock.

Hope this helps.

Paul.

 

[kribensis12]

This is definatley not Callamanus worms. I have probably delt with more callamanus worms than everone here on the forum combined. It osunds to be most likely Vibriosis. I have no idea where to find a food that treats it, and I most likely can't afford it. The guppie that passed away is actually from fantastic stock. It's the fry of a show guppy. The show guppy was raised by a man who recently passed away, but has won awards all over the U.S. for his guppies. So, quality of fish is not the problem. The stats are:

Ammonia: 0
NitrIte: 0
NitrAte: 30-40 ( I have several plecos in there temporarily).

The pleco's are not showing any sign of illness. The other guppies don't seem to be showing any signs yet. Ohh, about the poop. It was eeirly red. The poop sting was probably 2-3 inches long, and it was like blood red. I am greatly unsure of what to do.

SIDE NOTE: I have only seen this disease affect guppies and swordtails. Never on cichlids, or pleco's.

 

[WILDER]

If the poo blood red it could be internal bleeding, or they still have camallanous worms.If they have septicemia it might explain the blood red poo.

Using to many meds can lead to further damage. It can cause the system to shut down, and the fish build a resistance up to the meds.
All I can advise it having tests done on a dead fish.
The symstoms can point to a number of deseases, but without test done to elimate some of them, it's hard.

When you purchase new good breeding stock are you still issolating them for up to 4 to 6 weeks.

If it is vibrosis, is says in the article that the fish need injections.

 

[kribensis12]

Well, these fish in particular never showed signs of callamanus worms, but I treated them as they were new and I wanted to eliminate them. I can't afford to get the fish taken to a vet to be checked out, and I can't afford injections. Especially if what I'm treating for isn't the problem.

 

[WILDER]

Ok.
All you can do is try medicated food and hope for the best.
Good Luck.

 

[Mayu]

have you called a vet? Sometimes there are oral antibiotics you can place right in the water or soak their food in that are less expensive than injections... and at least where I live, I have one "fish doc" who gives injections and they're relatively inexpensive... and for those who can't afford it, they could set you up with a payment plan.

Isn't there a Vibriosis vaccine? In the long run, if this has happened before, perhaps you should look into a vaccine, may be a bit pricy, but it could save you in the long run.

I don't know about bloody poop, I do know that the dark lesions on the fish can ulcerate and bleed... perhaps that is what you saw... blood from the ulceration of the lesions? (the lesion being on the stomach near the tail, it would probably bleed in the same place they poop.)

that's just my thought though since I'm not a vet. Vibriosis is the only other thing I can think of if you're sure it's not camallanus, that would exhibit these kinds of signs.

 

[kribensis12]

Yeah, but a vaccine would only treat one fish. I just can't think of a inexpensive/ free way to diagnos this.

 

[WILDER]

Do you have a hosptial tank?

 

[loraxchick]

what did you use to treat for internal parasites? are you using one with lavamisole? this is the most affective drug for elimination of camallanus worms. definately sounds like a nematode/trematode infestation which can be very difficult to treat. can pass from mother-fry. all the symptoms point in that direction. you say youve dealt a lot with the worms-perhaps these particular ones are less suceptable to the meds you are using. just a thought
hope it all gets sorted for you. if it were me, id do a necropsy on one of the dead ones to see if i could "find" any worms in the gut/flesh. not a nice thought, but might be the only way to know what's going on (or at least eliminate macro-parasites).
best of luck. hopefully it gets sorted for you.
cheers