no such thing as 'rule of thumb'?

[Sky042]

Just as with any statistical type of information you can play the numbers any way you want to make your point of view seem like the right one, or even a possible one. What if i had an oscar in a 100 gallon tank, big enough for the oscar ,right? Now then according to this article i could add 10 more oscars to the tank. 100 gallons is big enough for one oscar therefore it is big enough for each oscar, right? there is enough space for swimming around(for each oscar) therefore this would be fine. I dont know if you could possibly keep up with the maintenance to make this work but according to the article with proper water changes it should. I don't agree with the authors statement in theory or practicality and it ceertainly should never be advice to novice fishkeepers. IMO

he also points out that body mass and agression play into the factors here. Oscars are heavy in both those catagories.

 

[tstenback]

Just as with any statistical type of information you can play the numbers any way you want to make your point of view seem like the right one, or even a possible one.  What if i had an oscar in a 100 gallon tank, big enough for the oscar ,right?  Now then according to this article i could add 10 more oscars to the tank. 100 gallons is big enough for one oscar therefore it is big enough for each oscar, right?  there is enough space for swimming around(for each oscar) therefore this would be fine. I dont know if you could possibly keep up with the maintenance to make this work but according to the article with proper water changes it should.  I don't agree with the authors statement in theory or practicality and it ceertainly should never be advice to novice fishkeepers. IMO

he also points out that body mass and agression play into the factors here. Oscars are heavy in both those catagories.

Yes, i agree. i was using the size of the oscar as an example of what a novice could perceive this article to mean. I agree with the fact that a rule of thumb does not exist for the educated fishkeeper. But to put an article like that on the internet where anyone can read it without a disclaimer of any kind is thoughtless and inconsiderate to the average fishkeeper. I was viewing the article from the standpoint that there are many newcomers to the hobby on this site and i reacted to the article based on that concept.

Makes for wonderful and thought provoking conversation though
thank you

 

[pendragon]

I think we would all be more agreeable if we called the "rules of thumb" for stocking instead the "Beginner's Rule of Thumb for Small Fish" and the "Beginner's Rule of Thumb for Bigger Fish". In fact, I may adopt that into my fishy vocabulary. It would allow for the differing stocking constraints between neon tetras and oscars, and would also infer that the advanced fishkeeper's judgement allows them more freedom while establishing a "safe" stocking target for the beginner.

I think that disagreement on this topic is born largely from over-generalization. However, I hold fast to the idea that the afforementioned "Beginner's Rules of Thumb" serve an important and necessary purpose.

pendragon!

 

[Sky042]

Just as with any statistical type of information you can play the numbers any way you want to make your point of view seem like the right one, or even a possible one.  What if i had an oscar in a 100 gallon tank, big enough for the oscar ,right?  Now then according to this article i could add 10 more oscars to the tank. 100 gallons is big enough for one oscar therefore it is big enough for each oscar, right?  there is enough space for swimming around(for each oscar) therefore this would be fine. I dont know if you could possibly keep up with the maintenance to make this work but according to the article with proper water changes it should.  I don't agree with the authors statement in theory or practicality and it ceertainly should never be advice to novice fishkeepers. IMO

he also points out that body mass and agression play into the factors here. Oscars are heavy in both those catagories.

Yes, i agree. i was using the size of the oscar as an example of what a novice could perceive this article to mean. I agree with the fact that a rule of thumb does not exist for the educated fishkeeper. But to put an article like that on the internet where anyone can read it without a disclaimer of any kind is thoughtless and inconsiderate to the average fishkeeper. I was viewing the article from the standpoint that there are many newcomers to the hobby on this site and i reacted to the article based on that concept.

Makes for wonderful and thought provoking conversation though
thank you

I'd like to hope that a half way decent pet store would prevent an oscar overstock. Mine did. Well techincall they still allowed me to over stock the oscars but not as bad as it could have been.

 

[Silly me]

tstenback and pendragon sound like to two of you really have the feeling of you fish at hart and not the looks of the tank..

I have to agree I had much more success with a tank well under stocked with fish and overplanted, but hey thats just me. I have a copy of some area on a container, not a container as much as possible fish it can hold.

The rule of thumb is a starting point, IF EVER BEGGINER ( including me ) would follow them there would be a lot less cheap tank at garage sales..

 

[BIGMAC]

I tend to use rule of thumb but i dont have any BIG fish also when i read posts on stocking people tend to work it out that way by saying you have so many inch of fish in a whatever size tank,so thats why i go by this rule

 

[Pointy_kitty]

i always teach the rule of thumb to newbies
i see them all the time on here where they just got a tank and have stocked close to (if not more) 2" of fish per gallon
i tell them they are too overcrowded
i think this is important to make clear to people who obviously have little to no fish experience
what happens when the have a tank this crowded and they get their first disease/parasite? MAJOR DISASTER!
sure we can call it a "BEGINNERS RULE OF THUMB"
this name is entirely appropriate
but to say that no such rule applies is stupidity.
my best girl friend just got a tank and i taught her 1" of fish per gallon or as close as you can get to it,
after only a few months she has 3 tanks, that she has no clue how to take care of
and phones me daily with a million questions
she is just learning about disease and has lost many fish (which would have been allot more if she didn't have my help)
most people don't have someone to guide them and only learn in time through experience.
do we really want to say that there is no limit on fish?
IMO putting those words out in the open is dangerous, as there are many people who look to us for guidance just waiting for acceptance in adding more fish to an already overcrowded tank
if they cannot wait and slowly add to their tanks as they become more knowledgeable and use to water changes and proper maintenance then maybe they are not fish people
those who are new and argue against this rule when we are only trying to help them, should maybe think about purchasing a pet rock

 

[jeffrey]

I agree that its beginners rule of thumb...


I have alomst 1.5" per gallon, but I also have a fuval 303 canister and a whisper 40 on the back for my 20 gallon.

but thats cause I have 6 khuli loaches that stay on the bottom, and are real long, but not very big.

6 x 3" = 12

then two smaller algea eaters

2 x 1.5" = 3

then 6 tetras

8 x 1" = 8

then I have 6 marble hatchets

6 x 1.5" = 9


thats a total of 32" of fish in 20 gallons.






From what I read on here my water changes are too far apart, it get too much direct sunlight.... but yet they all seem to live fine, and all perameters stay where they should.

Mind you it took me a long time to be able to do this, and I wouldnt recomend it to anyone that didnt know what they were doing.
but it can be done.

 

[luxum]

do we really want to say that there is no limit on fish?
IMO putting those words out in the open is dangerous, as there are many people who look to us for guidance just waiting for acceptance in adding more fish to an already overcrowded tank

You do have a point here, but the truth is, the stubborn newbie fishkeeper is probably not going to listen to you anyway and will overstock no matter what you say. Most people have to make their own mistakes first unfortunately and tend to not listen when you don't tell them what they want to hear.

I personally feel that the 1" per gallon "rule of thumb" is responsible for serious overstocking in many beginner tanks, because the beginners fail to take into account ~adult~ fish size. It also doesn't take into account the bioload of a heavy bodied fish versus a slim bodied one, or the surface area of a long tank versus a tall one. In many cases it can be very misleading, and generally not for the best guideline.

I guess my point is, people who want to learn should be told the truth, not an oversimplified catch phrase that is very unlikely to approximate their conditions. The quoted article does explain the many variables at play and does a good job, in my opinion, of explaining stocking, although i do take issue with the idea that you can add as many fish to a tank you want so long as you have the right sized filter and do water changes. I would change that sentence to reflect that nitrate readings are kept in proper range with those water changes.

I once made the mistake of listening to a slightly different "rule of thumb" that indicated that 10 gallons per fancy goldfish was sufficient, so i had 2 of them in my 20 long. The water volume was not sufficient, even with daily water changes, to keep all their nitrate production in check. Eventually they weakened and died, and it was entirely my fault. I now agree with the experienced goldfish keepers i've talked to who give a single fish 30 gallons, and i will never keep goldfish again until i can offer them that along with filtration out the wazoo! Just think how bad it could have been if i'd listened to the basic rule of thumb without doing any research, and stocked 20 inches of goldfish in that tank?

Just some thoughts.

 

[Pointy_kitty]

do we really want to say that there is no limit on fish?
IMO putting those words out in the open is dangerous, as there are many people who look to us for guidance just waiting for acceptance in adding more fish to an already overcrowded tank

You do have a point here, but the truth is, the stubborn newbie fishkeeper is probably not going to listen to you anyway and will overstock no matter what you say. Most people have to make their own mistakes first unfortunately and tend to not listen when you don't tell them what they want to hear.

I personally feel that the 1" per gallon "rule of thumb" is responsible for serious overstocking in many beginner tanks, because the beginners fail to take into account ~adult~ fish size. It also doesn't take into account the bioload of a heavy bodied fish versus a slim bodied one, or the surface area of a long tank versus a tall one. In many cases it can be very misleading, and generally not for the best guideline.

I guess my point is, people who want to learn should be told the truth, not an oversimplified catch phrase that is very unlikely to approximate their conditions. The quoted article does explain the many variables at play and does a good job, in my opinion, of explaining stocking, although i do take issue with the idea that you can add as many fish to a tank you want so long as you have the right sized filter and do water changes. I would change that sentence to reflect that nitrate readings are kept in proper range with those water changes.

I once made the mistake of listening to a slightly different "rule of thumb" that indicated that 10 gallons per fancy goldfish was sufficient, so i had 2 of them in my 20 long. The water volume was not sufficient, even with daily water changes, to keep all their nitrate production in check. Eventually they weakened and died, and it was entirely my fault. I now agree with the experienced goldfish keepers i've talked to who give a single fish 30 gallons, and i will never keep goldfish again until i can offer them that along with filtration out the wazoo! Just think how bad it could have been if i'd listened to the basic rule of thumb without doing any research, and stocked 20 inches of goldfish in that tank?

Just some thoughts.

that is why we say "research, research and more research"
i always tell fish owners that they should fully research each fish before purchasing

as for the goldfish thing,
i thought that 10gallons per fancy goldfish WAS sufficient
i know many people who have used this rule with great success
some goldfish will need much more room (such as a large pond) but i have never heard that a fancy goldfish would need 30 gallons
i would think that is a bit extreme
but thats just IME as a bystander

 

[luxum]

~shrug~ It would have seemed extreme to me too until my own experience with them. Goldfish are poop machines!

Yes, everyone should research, it's much easier now with the world at your fingertips, but many people are innately impatient. In my case, i did research, but i was looking at pretty old books which pushed a 1 fish per 10 gallon rule. In my experience, that is sufficient for young goldies but once they get bigger, they need more water to dilute their copious waste production. My old crappy filtration and the warm temperature in my tank didn't help i'm sure, but the bacteria had it well in hand, there was never measureable ammonia or nitrite in the tank, but the nitrate was out of control. I was told that the warm temps would not be a problem and that fancies preferred such temps due to their swim bladder problems, but warm temps also means they were more active and produced more waste, and i now think that the warm temperatures likely contributed to the weakening of their immune systems along with chronic exposure to high nitrates. For the 1 fish per 30 gallon rule, check out the larger goldfish forums, the goldfish connection had a decent one, but i haven't been back there in a long time lest i get tempted by their incredible stock.

At any rate my point is not to argue the proper stocking density of goldfish, but rather to show that stocking density is very flexible depending on individual variables and that 1" per gallon rule can be just as dangerous when misapplied as a "however many you want" rule would be.