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Nitrico Bacterial Goop With soft water.

Dermot40

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I wonder if any members have used Nitrico Bacterial Goop.
This helps cycle your tank in a very short time. Or so it claims.
I am 3+ weeks into my fishless cycle with an Ammonia reading of 4ppm, on Nitrite or Nitrate yet.
My PH reading was dropping from 7.4 to 6.2 I added bicarb and this increased my level back to 7.4.
I contacted the company ( Tropco ) to as if this was a problem if I bought Goop. I was told that as I live in Scotland my water would be soft and I was to check my KH level. As a low reading of below 4 would make Goop ineffective. I tested my water in tank it was 5; but my tap water is only 2.
Has firstly anyone used Goop and secondly has anyone with low KH readings had any success with Goop.
I have tried 3 different brands of bottled bacteria but nothing has worked.



 
The reason they comment on the KH is because of the problem you've already encountered - the pH drop. The bacteria multiply very slowly at low pH so the cycle takes ages. Since your tank has KH 5 with the added bicarb it won't be a problem.

Longer term, once the tank is cycled, a low KH and pH is not a problem. We have members who have almost zero in their tap water and members who use all RO water which has zero KH. Their fish are fine.
 
This product, which they tell you on their site is, "A pouch of live Nitromonas and Nitrobacter" contains the wrong bacteria.

Nitrosomonas, the ammonia oxidizer, comes in a variety of strains but they do not identify the strain. So it may or may not be a correct one. But, Nitrobacter is not what is found in established tanks. It is a wastewater bacteria which is able to handle nitrite levels way higher than what is seen in put tanks. The proper bacteria is Nitrospira.

The problem is that the Nitrospira are patented and cannot be used by almost amnybody whoc doesn't hodl the patent rights. These are held by Dr. Timothy Hovanec (who discovered them) and Marineland where th warked running their labs at the time. marineland was bought by a conglomerate with a pet division that includes Tetra. They turned the patent over to the Tetra division and they sell a similar product to the Dr. Tim's. Any other product will not provide the bacteria which are the ones that are in out tanks once it has been cycled/established.

Next, when one used a proper bacteria startr it contains both ammonia and nitrite oxidizers. So whatever amount of ammonia they can turn into nitrite, there sufficient bacteria to immediately turn that nitrite to nitrate. So it is not uncommon to see little or no nitrite when cycling this way. The "idea" concentration of ammonia to be adding for a fishless cycle is basically between 2 and 3 ppm.

Finally, if live plants are involved, they use ammonia but produce 0 nitrite or nitrate.
 
I know this is a few days old but just wanted to revive it as I've been considering this product based on seeing results on a couple of facebook groups. Generally what I'm seeing is people using this and then adding fish, with some keeping upto date regular with readings and its going well, other people have added this to a fishless cycle and again its gone well...

I had a little chat with someone of a similar opinion as me with these products - which is to instantly distrust them - but there does seem to be a couple of products out there that have perhaps modernised or changed in the last few years that starts to make me come round a bit more to them?

Really interesting to hear what @TwoTankAmin has said already but could it be possible there has been some other kind of advancement?

Wills
 
@Wills @Dermot40 I tested it out on a fishless cycle in a small 25 litre tank with a brand new filter sponge, no substrate, no plants, and no decor. No added bacteria from a bottle. I used Dr Tim's ammonia. The filter cycled in 84 hrs which was when I was able to go from 3ppm ammonia to 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite within 24 hrs. Start to finish was 84 hrs. 3 days and 12 hours.
 
I think there are two very important distinctions here, which I suspect @TwoTankAmin would agree with, but if not he can tell us.

First, none of these products--with the sole exception of SafeStart and Dr. Tim's--contain the actual nitrifying bacteria species, at the second stage (Nitrospira). That is just fact.

Second distinction I would make is that every aquarium is biologically different and these nitrifying bacteria arrive in the tap water and we have no way of knowing what level there may be. A study on bacteria and the effect of both chlorine and chloramine clearly established that more than half of these bacteria initially in the water are not harmed by chlorine/chloramine. So who knows how many may be coming through the tap water in the first place. It is easy to think that product "x" is achieving something that in fact it may not be achieving simply because of more or fewer bacterium in the water to start with.
 
I have spoken to these guys and seen photos of their setup. (Disclaimer I have not used the product). They are a bunch of fishkeepers, not biologists or scientists. What I understand is they create a controlled environment (pH, temp, oxygen, circulation) and feed it ammonia. The "goop" is pretty much just a carrier, or if you prefer the filter media. So effectively you are just buying pre-cycled filter material, albeit in gel form, but without the pathogenic risk associated with picking up a bag a filter material from your LFS. So their claimed shelf life of 72 hours makes sense if its just "filter material" that came out of a fishless system..

I can vouch for their ability to ship live fish so that they arrive quickly and alive. I don't recall losing a single fish bought from them
 
I have spoken to these guys and seen photos of their setup. (Disclaimer I have not used the product). They are a bunch of fishkeepers, not biologists or scientists. What I understand is they create a controlled environment (pH, temp, oxygen, circulation) and feed it ammonia. The "goop" is pretty much just a carrier, or if you prefer the filter media. So effectively you are just buying pre-cycled filter material, albeit in gel form, but without the pathogenic risk associated with picking up a bag a filter material from your LFS. So their claimed shelf life of 72 hours makes sense if its just "filter material" that came out of a fishless system..

I can vouch for their ability to ship live fish so that they arrive quickly and alive. I don't recall losing a single fish bought from them
I went down there Sean in person recently. Really nice set up.
 
I have spoken to these guys and seen photos of their setup. (Disclaimer I have not used the product). They are a bunch of fishkeepers, not biologists or scientists. What I understand is they create a controlled environment (pH, temp, oxygen, circulation) and feed it ammonia. The "goop" is pretty much just a carrier, or if you prefer the filter media. So effectively you are just buying pre-cycled filter material, albeit in gel form, but without the pathogenic risk associated with picking up a bag a filter material from your LFS. So their claimed shelf life of 72 hours makes sense if its just "filter material" that came out of a fishless system..

I can vouch for their ability to ship live fish so that they arrive quickly and alive. I don't recall losing a single fish bought from them

Thanks Sean this is really interesting - its what I thought it was! Tropco is certainly an interesting place at the moment only hearing good things about them but not used them. Good to know @AlexT has seen it in person too :)

This is the kind of thing where I'm wondering if things have just started to move on - new way of making a product, makes sense to a layman like me?
 
Their website says
A pouch of live Nitromonas and Nitrobacter goop ready to populate your new aquarium and filter.

I wonder if they are using outdated info (since they are not scientists) and calling the nitrite eaters by the species it was once thought to be - 'nitrobacter' - but the product actually contains nitrospira since it is produced from their own cycled media.
 
I don't do fishless cycles, since I have the luxury of a multi-tank system and just cultivate live filters for transfer, combined with permanently light stocking and water changes galore. But this is an interesting thread even for neanderthals like me.

How does the softwater ammonium versus hardwater ammonia affect these processes?

I'm lucky to have very soft water from an acidic, tannin stained lake/reservoir in my city, so I am curious about the processes, though not driven to experiment myself.
 
Soft water affects the bacteria more though KH and pH. Low pH means slower multiplying; very low pH means very frustrated would-be fish keepers as the cycle seems to take forever. The bacteria also need inorganic carbon; low KH means slower multiplying etc.

Ammonia/ammonium shouldn't affect the cycle as whichever one the bacteria use (mind's gone blank) the other will convert to the one the bacteria use to maintain the equilibrium.
 
The bacteria prefer ammonia. However, they also have receptors for ammonium. But they process ammonium less efficiently than ammonia. However, it is the ammonia which is highly toxic and the ammonium is way less so. this does not mean that Ammonium can not do harm. The higher the level, the less safe. Plus there is the rish that something might cause the pH to rise unexpectedly and in such cases it is very easy for ammonia to appear where there was only ammonium before.

However, if there were no nitrifying organisms in acid waters, there would not be many or any fish in them. A lot of the issues relating to cycling are due to the fact than nature is huge and tanks are very small in comparison. And then there is the fact that nature doesn't make mistakes but people can. Nature can hold surprises, a tornado, a high temperature spell, torrential rains etc. But in most cases these may spare fish while they wreck havoc with humans.

I gave up cycling tanks some time ago and choose instead to cycle filters. Like many here I have a number of tanks, So when I need to cycle multiple tanks I use a bio-farm and I cycle filters. But when I need to cycle just one tank I simply rinse out some of my cycled media in the new tank. I add ammonia and I am usually good to go fairly fast. If it is an urgent need I will move in some live plants as well. Plants also host the need bacteria, so, when we add them, we get a double benefit.

Scientists can culture their own bacteria in an environment free of any nasties. When I run my bio-farm It is in a newly set up tank with new water. There is no chance of contamination.

Next, the bottles bacteria from Dr. Hoavanec or tetra can remain viable in the bottle for a whole lot longer than 72 hours or 73 days for that matter. I keep a small bottle of Dr. Tim's bacteria in my fridge. At the cooler temp the product remains viable for about a year. By viable it is meant that they will perform as expected. Longer than that and there may no longer be enough number to accelerate a cycle by very much.

Another thing we often do not realize about the bacteria is we have an awful huhe number if individuals. Every day a number of them die and at the same time new ones are created because the living ones are also dividing. So the net result is a stable functional colony. What can change that is the amunt of ammonia being made available. If it declines then there will be more individuals dying than are being "born." Increase the amount of ammonia and the reverse will happen.

The bacteria must have survival strategies or they would have died out a very long time ago as they do not form spores. I can show you papers where soil stored for years still contained enough viable and cultural bacterial cells that they could provide the start of a huge colony when conditions favor this.

And since Dr, Hovanec et. al. made their discoveries, things have indeed changed. Nitrospira were discovered to be able process ammobia to nitrate as well as nitrite to nitrate. Also it was discovered that there are Archaea able to oxidize ammonia to nitrite. In fact, they can out compete bacteria when ammonia levels are very low. Many of us may have Archaea in our tanks as well as bacteria or instead of it.

The most important thing to realixe is that the challenge for us as fish keepers is to insure ammonia is not an issue. We may cycle a tank to do this. we may use plants to do this or even algae. Often it is a combination. The one thing that is certain is all tanks which handle ammonia contain some amount of bacteria. Even the most heavily planted tanks still have nitrifying bacteria at work in them. Itr may be a small amount, but it is never 0.

On the other hand, there are plenty of cycled tanks without a single live plant in them. They may or may not have some algae.

One last note. The bacteria in a bottle are healthy but basically "asleep." They go to sleep when they notice that the things they need are no longer available- ammonia, oxygen and inorganic carbon are the big 3. In the bottle these things are absent. When we put them into a tank with ammonia available as will as O and carbonates/CO2, they wake up and go back to work.
 
My tank cycled last week in 3 days. Previous I had my tank cycling for 4 weeks with the only reading of 3ppm Ammonia. I added Goop and things happened fast. I tried 4 pet stores and 3 fish keepers at the beginning of my cycle to see it I could get something to seed my tank,……all refused me. So I added 3 types of bottled bacteria. Nothing happened then I bought Goop.
My tank readings taken each day remain constan.
Ammonia. 0. Nitrite. 0. Nitrate. 20. PH. 7.4. KH. 5. GH. 5
I have 4 cold water fish in my tank. 2 Fantail Oranda’s and 2 Ranchu fish bought online from Tropco. Sean worked with me to supply Ranchu fish.
I want to add one more fish a Panda Oranda, but I want to wait till I can upgrade my filter to a large canister filter which I will seed with Goop and wait a few weeks till I remove my internal filter.
 

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