Nitrates Vs. Ph?

[chase18]

Well I found out too late about the whole cycling thing despite intensive research prior to getting the fish. I started with 10 neons (LPS special), a plecostamus, and three guppies. I'm down to my two female guppies, and one of the females (they've both lost their first pregnancies) looks like one of her fins is ragged, and the scales on her belly appear to be coming off, although she's not fat at all. Figure she won't last much longer. Her gills are also reddish. The other female appears perfectly fine.

In any case I went out and got a testing kit. We have limited resources on the island and the only testing kit they had was a PH testing kit - liquid or strips. Liquid was cheaper so I got that. It shows 7.6 approximately and that's just above the max suggested for guppies (althoug WAY too high for neons). I guess I mistakenly assumed that PH and nitrate/nitrite was the same thing? Now I'm reading about everyone testing their nitrite/nitrate levels and ammonia levels. Is there a kit availble for that too? We don't have them here but I could probably order some off the internet somewhere. I posted an ad in the paper here for advice and have gotten nothing but conflicting information. Oh, and my tank has been filled and fished for 11 days now. There were a few days with no deaths inbetween the last of the neons and my male guppy. The girls are acting fine but...

I guess the most important thing I hope to gain from this is to see if there's any way to make my girls more comfortable, heal or stop the damage that's being done to them, aside from having someone else house them. There's no one we know, and the store...well, they don't speak English. If getting a live plant (we have silk plants - I thought, so it wouldn't tear their fins) would be helpful to the girls while the tank continues cycling we'll go get one. Or will that cause more problems than it's worth?

Any help or suggestions would be great - Thanks.

 

[Angel_Queen]

I am also just starting out and approaching the 11 day of the cycle with fish in the tank. I have spent the last week virtually on this forum checking posts for beginners, and although I am by no means an expert thought I'd offer some advice whilst you wait for more experience fish-keepers to get involved.

Firstly, I would try, if at all possible, to remove some of your fish from your tank whilst your going through the cycle process... either by giving some back to the shop where you bought them, or to a friend who has an already established tank to look after while your tank goes through the cycle process. By doing this, you will limit the amount of fish that suffer and die during the cycle. It looks like your fish are already suffering... ie. the physical damage you are witnessing to your guppies. Although the other female looks like it is ok, the water quality may be so bad that it won't take long for the other female to start to suffer.

Also, as far as I am aware from general reading, neon tetras are notoriously difficult to keep if you are a beginner as they are prone to a particular type of disease (Neon tetra disease... I think its called that)

You desperately need liquid tests (preferably as they are more accurate) that test for NitrIte, NitrAte and Ammonia. These are very important during the fish cycle... especially if you have fish already in the tank. Master Kits are available online from a variaty of fish/aquarium shops. You may need to do daily testings to check the levels of the 3 above. The ammonia should be no more than 1 mg/l. Athough, even at this level it is harmful for the fish. However without the ammonia becoming present and subsequently the nitrIte, your tank will not complete the cycle.

Until you are able to get a testing kit, I would assume your levels are dangerously high - due to your fish dying - and would start doing daily water changes. I've read people recommending 50% WITH dechlorinated water, but I would want this confirmed by another forum member. The problem with doing a Fishy Cycle is you will probably have to do water changes up to 3 or 4 times a day from what I've read.

I've hope I've helped. More help is needed here!

 

[rabbut]

I am also just starting out and approaching the 11 day of the cycle with fish in the tank. I have spent the last week virtually on this forum checking posts for beginners, and although I am by no means an expert thought I'd offer some advice whilst you wait for more experience fish-keepers to get involved.

Firstly, I would try, if at all possible, to remove some of your fish from your tank whilst your going through the cycle process... either by giving some back to the shop where you bought them, or to a friend who has an already established tank to look after while your tank goes through the cycle process. By doing this, you will limit the amount of fish that suffer and die during the cycle. It looks like your fish are already suffering... ie. the physical damage you are witnessing to your guppies. Although the other female looks like it is ok, the water quality may be so bad that it won't take long for the other female to start to suffer.

Also, as far as I am aware from general reading, neon tetras are notoriously difficult to keep if you are a beginner as they are prone to a particular type of disease (Neon tetra disease... I think its called that)

You desperately need liquid tests (preferably as they are more accurate) that test for NitrIte, NitrAte and Ammonia. These are very important during the fish cycle... especially if you have fish already in the tank. Master Kits are available online from a variaty of fish/aquarium shops. You may need to do daily testings to check the levels of the 3 above. The ammonia should be no more than 1 mg/l. Athough, even at this level it is harmful for the fish. However without the ammonia becoming present and subsequently the nitrIte, your tank will not complete the cycle.

Until you are able to get a testing kit, I would assume your levels are dangerously high - due to your fish dying - and would start doing daily water changes. I've read people recommending 50% WITH dechlorinated water, but I would want this confirmed by another forum member. The problem with doing a Fishy Cycle is you will probably have to do water changes up to 3 or 4 times a day from what I've read.

I've hope I've helped. More help is needed here!

Good mostly. A few things I would add, is that ammonia and nitrIte are dangerous above 0.25ppm short-tearm and anything readable on a test kit will do long-tearm damage to fish, so it is important to keep these two chemicals below these values. Untill you get a test kit, I agree you should be doing waterchanges of arround 50%, but twice a day ather than once. I assume that you know about cycleing now, and that you cannot add more fish untill the tank finishes its cycle. If not, post back, and I'll give you a link to a pinned topic detailing the process.
HTH
rabbut

 

[rdd1952]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

I agree with rabbut but you will definitely need to find an ammonia and nitrite kit somewhere. Otherwise, you will have no idea when the tank is cycled for the fish you have left. And when you do add more fish, you only want to add the same number you have or less. Never add enough that it more than doubles your stock.

On a side note, I see your Group is "Validating". You will need to find the email that came when you registered and click the link in it to validate your membership. Otherwise you will only be able to post in a couple forums. If you didn't get an email (it would be from gmail.com so check SPAM blockers), go here and have it resent.

 

[chase18]

Okay. I went back to my LPS today (I'm a fish nerd now?!) and met up with a guy who kinda spoke English - he did pretty good. Anyway he first told me I needed to clean and or replace my filter filler thingie. I said no. *shrug* He said maybe nitrates. So he offered to test my water. Later that same day...I brought him the water. The nitrate/nitrite (it was NO2 I think) was 0.2, and then ammonia, but that was higher and I don't remember what it was. I thought it was odd, that after a week and a half, I hadn't passed the ammonia phase. Anyway I thought perhaps I'd get some elodea. Remember a fun project we did in school when I was younger - my mom was the teacher - with guppies, elodea, and a cut-off pop bottle. Make-shift aquarium. The plants neutralize the bad stuff, right? Thought I'd get some of that. Guy says cool, but you need special lights. Natural sunlight, even partial, is BAD. Eh? We had our pop bottles sitting in the window at school. Anyway his other suggestion was to get a second filter which was cheaper than the lights by about $10 so we went with that instead. I would STILL like to get the elodea if anyone else can tell me we don't need lights for it. Natural's best, right? Fish guy also said do a 1/3 water change twice a week, and come back to test the water every week or in two weeks, he thought we'd be safe by two weeks to add a few more fish. Really, until we're safe, I just want at least two fish in there - don't want my fish to die of loneliness.

SO I've got two filters of equal size working, my girls seem "normal" - the one is still a little flaky but it doesn't seem to be bothering her. (In case I didn't mention before, I'm down to two fish - both female guppies, so I shouldn't need to lower the number in the tank, right? I mean I'd prefer they live, but two fish shouldn't be adding too much to my systems). And I'm preparing to do another water change tomorrow. Jeeze - is there such thing as having TOO much oxygen in your tank? Because both these filters are the type that pour water back into the tank, and I have a bubbler wand. I've been keeping that on low or off since I got the second filter.

Oh...and thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions. Nice to have people that care, really!!!

PS: They DO have ammonia and nitrite AND nitrate kits at the store. They are incredibly expensive - about $15 each - and of course, instructions in Japanese. Should I be checking the levels more than once a week? Rather, would it be in my fish's best interest that I have these kits, or will a water check once a week at the pet store be OK?

 

[Angel_Queen]

PS: They DO have ammonia and nitrite AND nitrate kits at the store. They are incredibly expensive - about $15 each - and of course, instructions in Japanese. Should I be checking the levels more than once a week? Rather, would it be in my fish's best interest that I have these kits, or will a water check once a week at the pet store be OK?

If you are cycling with fish and showing levels of ammonia higher than 0.2 this is not a good thing and you should be testing daily minimum to make sure they are not rising dangerously high for your fish. Can you not order the tests online, and check the levels at your LFS daily?

 

[rdd1952]

The test that came back at .2 ppm would have been nitrite. Nitrate tests don't read in numbers that small. Most test kits go in increments of 5,10, etc. Any level of ammonia and nitrite is bad. They are both toxic to fish and need to be 0 although that isn't possible in a cycling tank. Just do daily water chagnes to keep them as low as possible. Having a second filter really won't have any effect on the cycling process. The bacteria will still have to develop. Two filters will just mean that the bacteria is split between the 2 of them depending on flow rate of each. The one with the higher flow rate will contain the most bacteria.

I would also suggest ordering the test kits online. A API Master Test kit from Petsmart (probably don't have those over there) is less than $17 (plus shipping) and sill do hundreds of tests each for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH. You could probably find it on eBay or similar site. If you end up buyint the ones there, just post the brand name and someone can tell you how many drops to add or you probably can find their ebsite to get the directions in English.

As for the plants, they do use ammonia but you really have to have a very heavily planted tank before it will make a differenc. Having 2 to 4 plants in a 30 gallon tank won't have any significant effect on the ammonia level. And direct sunlight is definitely bad for an aquarium. It will lead to green water and heavy algae growth. There are some plants that will do well under normal flourescent lights. Slow growing low light plants will be fine. Other plants need more lighting, at least 2 watts per gallon. That can only be achieved by upgrading to power compact lights.

 

[chase18]

Thanks for the input.

Now this.

My sick guppy is only breathing intermitantly at this point (every now and then). She did come up to eat (I feed them a TEENY bit once a day) but then quickly resumed her position at the bottom of the tank, laying upright, but on the rocks. I'm guessing she's not going to live. Then I'll have one. Does anyone think it's a good idea to keep two fish in the tank, as in, I'd go buy another, probably a plain guppy instead of a fancy one. I've heard that it can be even more stressful when the fish has no company. My remaining fish shows no marks of illness, although I'm sure she's not happy, would it be beneficial to have a second fish in the tank? Wouldn't a fish be more succeptible to illness when stressed than not?

I did place a VERY long distance call to Petsmart in hopes of talking to an expert in English but turns out they're only experts on their products, not the animals. *shrug* We order stuff online from Amazon and they do have a kit, says it's a minikit that includes PH, nitrate, nitrite, and ammonia (among a few others??) and each bottle is supposed to have 90 tests each.

But if I DO test every day, and I find everyday that there's still ammonia, isn't there nothing else - besides water changes - that I can do? Besides to know that it's still not safe for more fish?

Thanks again.

 

[Chrispixx]

All you can do right now is change water, twice a day preferably and use dechlorinator. Where are you that you have a hard time getting fish supplies? Check this website for fish supplies hopefully shipping wont be too much for you Big Al's Online its best to order a whole bunch of stuff at once to save on shipping costs. As opposed to ordering one thing this week and two things next week and have to pay for shipping twice.

Do not get any more fish until the cycle is over getting more fish will only cause more problems.

Sorry to hear about your neons dieing.. but trust me you are better off, they are cool fish and look nice but they come with more problems than they are worth. They get diseased easily and have their own disease named after them (neon tetra disease - NTD)

I've tried to keep them in the past a few times and had no luck and i swore i would never get them again. This was years ago, so what do i do recently.. well i decide to get some and give it another go, only to get boned again. I found one with faded colors and a bent spine the other day, good old NTD again. This will definitely be the last time with neons for me.

Try to get a test kit asap... you need to test for ammonia, and change water to keep it low as possible.
You can test for nitrIte too but its usually not necessary until ammonia peaks.
Personally i would test for both everyday and do water changes to keep them down low, then when you get zero readings you will be cycled. Then you can get more fish but only a few at a time (two a week) to give the bacteria a chance to multiply to the new fish load.

 

[rdd1952]

Unfortunately, it sounds as if she isn't going to make it. I'm not very knowledgeable on diseases and ammonia/nitrie poisoning so I can't really say. Water changes are about all you can do. There are products like Ammo-Lock that lock ammonia and convert it to t's non-toxic form of ammonium but once it's transformed into nitrite you are bck to a toxin again. You are right about stress and disease. Mot diseases are triggered by stress and usually it's from bad water quality. If your tank is disease free and you know that the store you will get the fish from is also disease free, it probably wouldn't hurt to add another guppy for company to the other. I wouldn't fo it though until you are able to test the water daily though so you can test and do water changes to keepthe ammonia and nitrite down. Feeding once every other day will also help keep the levels low.

Here is th test kit you need from Amazon.com if it's available where you are. It will test ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH (high and low).

 

[chase18]

It's depressing cause my "healthy" female keeps hanging out down by the sick one. She doesn't nip at her or anything, just hangs out by her for a while. Poor thing!

Anyway we'll go ahead and order the stuff from Amazon. We're living in Japan with the military - we have a pet shop on base but it's ONLY for cats and dogs. Technically they don't like us having pets because it's difficult to take them back with you, so a lot of people just abandon their pets and leave. Lots of stray dogs around here. Some form packs and attack kids. *sigh* But the fish, I figured I'd either try to sell or give away the whole setup (I now see the benefits of buying a cycled tank...) or else try and give away the fish and empty the tank and take that home with us. Guess my husband wants a BIG one.

When I say "disease" I don't mean like an actual disease like ich or whatever, I just mean the effect the water is having on them - ammonia burns and whatnot. I figure the effect the water is having on them is bad enough, and being stressed out from being alone might make them weaker still.

Amazon usually gets things here within a week, but some sellers are slower in shipping, so we'll probably stick with Amazon. Thank you for your specific link!

So you think daily water changes, and how much each time? My pet shop guy said 1/3 tank twice a week.

Thanks again for talking to me about this, everyone who is commenting.

 

[chase18]

I got my test kit.

Tonight my Ammonia was 1.7, Nitrite 0.5, Nitrate 3, and PH 7.8.

I did a two gallon (of 10 gallons) water change, with drops to bring down PH, and drops to even out chlorene, and my Ammonia dropped to 1.3. Everything else stayed the same.

My younger female died yesterday. As soon as I added another female, my existing female left the sick one's side to swim with the healthy one. Glad I did it now, too. I floated her for a full hour, adding tank water to her bag about every 20 minutes. Then I used the net to transfer her to the tank and dumped her bag water. I'd like to think that adding her was more positive than negative, although I won't be adding any more fish as long as I have my two.

Here's one though. I did have a male in my tank for just over a week (before he died...) and he managed to impregnante both females - who subsequently lost or reabsorbed their pregnancies. Now my NEW female appears pregnant. She's rounded overnight, and her "gravid" spot is dark. She's actually a bigger guppy than my female I had and the dark spot seems to extend almost to the top of her back. Is this a reaction to the water, or did he leave something there that might have knocked her up already? With the water as bad as it is I wouldn't assume she'd maintain the pregnancy if she was, but I was just curious. Guppies are pretty...different...with their reproduction capabilities.

Tomorrow I plan to test, maybe water change, and test again. If I did a water change, would the difference be readable immediately, or should I wait longer to see if the water change had any effect?

 

[Angel_Queen]

I really don't think you should add any more fish especially with such high ammonia readings. I fear you may lose the new ones

Many people will recommend you don't add drops to alter the PH but rather introduce fish to your tank that can stand PH levels of 7.8. A stable ph is better than one that goes up and down due to adding the drop.

With such a high ammonia level, it may be better for you to do more than just one water change a day. Test the water tonight and change the water accordingly IMHO.

Try testing your water before and after a water change, i think there is a visible immediate difference. Good luck. Keeping fingers crossed.

 

[Musho3210]

dont change the pH, that pH is perfectly fine if your not breeding, messing with pH would be A LOT worse.

Its not the pH that matters so much with those fish, its the kH and GH. But since they are both probably tank bred they are probably fully adjusted and there would be nothing wrong with that ph. I keep neons and cardinals in medium hard water with a high ph (7.6-7.8).

So unless you want to breed them, dont do anything with the pH. pH down and pH up products are a bunch of junk since they normally dont alter the kH (the kH keeps the pH stable). So the pH lowers temporarily but the kH stays the same. Since the kH is higher than the pH, the kH then pulls the pH back to its regular level. This rollercoaster swing in pH is really bad for the fish. Much worse than an abnormal pH.....

 

[chase18]

Okay - don't mess with the PH, got it. This whole thing started when I got a PH testing kit because I thought PH and nitrates were related. At that time my PH read 7.6. I just figured jeeze, if my PH AND all that other stuff was off, I was really in bad shape. But rest assured, I won't be PHing anymore. I'm also keeping a record of my testing results so that hopefully in a week or so I'll notice a downslide on my ammonia.The testing kit I got suggested "Ammonia Lock" which I actually happen to have - good idea, or not? I used it once about a week ago, then read some stuff where I should not have used it (why do they sell stuff like this if it's counterproductive??), so I didn't use it during water change yesterday.Oh. And I don't want to "breed" them, I kinda hoped it would just happen on its own. I've had guppies before, most of my childhood actually, and they just spit out babies like bunnies. I figured the natural way of things would leave me with a few extra fish by reproduction and that's why I only intended on ever getting three adults. Figured one male, two females...no one would be bothered too much, adults would eat most of the babies...yadda yadda. So my intention is just to have fish, but I would rather they be able to breed than that the water is too hostile to allow for that basic function. BUT that's something we'll worry about when things even out, hopefully in a month?