Newbie Question! How Many More Fish?

[jacko32]

Our LFS guy suggested adding some coal or activated carbon lumps to the tank, which I guess would work in a similar way to the carbon filter? He seemed to think so. Will check what the other filter is, about to do a water change this morning - will see how the ammonia is and try to do a couple of buckets today.
The UGF was also 'used' and the guy also suggested we leave it as it is, presumably because it was already matured?

I'm really surprised to hear that HOB filters are better than UGFs, I'd been led to believe otherwise by just about everyone - relatives, LFS, guy who sold it to us & books!

Think we're going to just keep what we've got fish-wise and see how they do. A tank is a long term commitment afterall, and the guppies at least will be gone in about a year, at which point we can replace them.

Thanks for the ID on 'Mr Fantastic' (that's what we call the Fox). He seems to have cleaned up the bit of brown algae we'd had developing on a leaf, so he's a great little guy!

dont add any coral it will raise the pH in your tank !
if you just keep doing 30%-40% water changes regular and test your water it wont take long for your filter to kick in properly

 

[Lady Moogie]

Thanks, we've managed about 25% today. Guess we may need to get another bucket! The ammonia is definately down, we tested before and after. I'd estimate we're at about 0.1 at worst, it's a bit hard to judge with colour charts! We'll try to do another water change midweek to get on top of things.

Also planning to get a gravel cleaner/syphon, so we can clean up the gravel a bit while we take water out. Or is this a bad idea with a UGF?

Think you misread my post, I said coal, not coral Don't worry We're not thinking of adding any forms of life into the tank now (unless they've been dead for millions of years!)

The other filter is a Fluval 2Plus, looks pretty big. We could probably set it up at the opposite side of the tank to the tube/powerhead. I'll try to find a manual for it online. We don't seem to have a suction attachment plate for it, so will need to find one of those if we're going to use this thing.

Noticed the plec is looking a little pale today (even before water change), but is behaving normally. The book says it could be chlorine poisoning, but we've always used watersafe when preparing our water, so not sure what else this could be?

Thanks for the continued help!

 

[waterdrop]

Hi LM and welcome to TFF!

I'm going to start with the following post quote as I feel it was particularly well written and probably the most important one up there, although the Assaye post is also essential and he's our point man on stocking and did an excellent analysis on yours.

A mature undergravel filter is the most effective biological filter that you can have, but not the easiest to care for. On the other hand, an immature UGF is as useless as any other biological filter is until it has the chance to mature. You have a heavily stocked tank but one that should be able to support its present population once the filter has a chance to mature. A trace of ammonia is an indication that the cycle on your filter may not have started yet. If you left behind filthy gravel, you may be introducing organics into the water, which will decompose into ammonia even if the gravel filter has matured. Either way, it will be important to stay on top of testing your water so that you will be able to tell when a water change is needed to control ammonia or nitrites. The relatively heavy fish population that you presently have will mean you need to change more like 25% to 30% of the water weekly, not merely 10%.

Our beginner section here has beginners/newcomers arriving in all sorts of different states of affairs and yours is certainly an interesting one, though it contains a lot of beginner mishaps that we see quite often. This thread contains such a large amount of information about gravel and rocks and especially fish that it has drawn our members, for the most part, into discussing all those things quite a lot!

I feel that there's the possibility that this reverses the priorities. First of all there's mention of the detection of white spot (ich) here and its not clear there's been proper follow-through on this either using OM47's excellent link in his signature or by posing up a query to Wilder over in the emergencies section. Maybe we think this is no longer a problem in your tank but I just thought we should check that out first.

Secondly, I think its pretty clear we've hardly started on the question of water quality and filtration. That is why I've quoted OM47's post. Its great that you've acquired a good liquid-reagent based test kit - that's really the first step.. and I hope that you've picked up a simple spiral notebook and are logging your daily test results (ammonia, nitrite(NO2), pH daily for now, nitrate(NO3) perhaps every 3 days or so.) Any other actions or observations should also go in to your little daily entry in the notebook.

One of the things we hope to accomplish in the beginners section is lots of learning, so that the experience extends beyond simply getting the first tank successfully started. It would be really good, if you haven't already done so, for the two of you to read the entries in the Beginners Resource Center on the Nitrogen Cycle, the Fishless Cycle and the Fish-In cycle. Those are really core concepts to the hobby and we don't want any beginner passing through to miss out on them. They also need to be well understood to help with the understanding of the filter situation and in your case its even more important since your filter situation is more complicated. UGFs, as OM47 stated, can be excellent (and inexpensive, which is one of their primary attributes) *biological* filters, but they can also be quite difficult for beginners for a number of reasons.

Certainly no more fish should be bought and the skill of good "Fish-In" cycling should be studied and worked over as a high priority here. The possibly mature gravel and UGF may turn out to be functioning well and that will be good but better to be safe than sorry in this area. The first learning goals should be the nitrogen topic (the nitrogen cycle and the different cycling processes) and then next the aquarium filter and what its different functions are and how they are achieved. This will be a lot to add on to the watching of an already going tank and the water changes it will be needing. The topics of fish and decorations (which are the wonderful goals that are of course wrapped up in the whole point of the hobby) should be viewed to some extent as distractions at this point, until the basics are confirmed to be well in hand.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Lady Moogie]

Thanks, I'll be reading through those articles ASAP - and will get the other half to read them as soon as he get the chance too.

Just to clarify on the Ich, we're quite sure there's no further sign of it after medicating with Protozin - we finished the course of that on Monday last week; although I understand it's a parastic problem and it may be too soon to tell that the tank's all clear. Everyone in the tank certainly seems happy & healthy (and although I commented that the plec was looking a bit off-colour this morning, he seems fine now - perhaps it was just the dull morning light) - no visible signs now, and we're now dropping the temperature - by about 1 degree a day - to 26°c. I've tried to find photos of guppies with white spot, to see if it definatly was that, but no joy. Thankfully if it was, we seem to have done what OM47 suggests in his guide, so I hope we're ok now. There were not a lot of spots in the first instance, and nothing visible now.

It must be such a pain always seeing newbs going through the same problems. We did try to read up on it before getting the tank, but I guess sometimes it's easier to get your head around information when you've got it happening in front of you at the same time. I'm so sorry that we already lost some fish and feel annoyed that the generousity of our LFS guy (and my apparent inability to tell him NO!) has overfilled our tank already at this early stage. We'll do our best to keep these fish happy and healthy. The other half wants us to get a 2 foot tank for his desk, to rehome a few fish. Personally I don't think we should be starting up another tank until we really know what we're doing! Plus, it all adds up and I'm already finding this more expensive than I'd anticipated in terms of extra equipment. But, when we're responsible for other lives we take that seriously and if the critters need money spent to keep them well, we'll find a way to afford it

We've been keeping note of the water test results & water changes but not really anything else - thankfully as you've seen with my first post, I have a bit of a memory for details & events - I'll be sure to make a note of what's happened & when.

I think we may also have been overfeeding a bit, which I gather could cause the ammonia? We were feeding according to the packaging, but I understand they often just want to sell more food, so we'll be cutting back to 2 feeds a day and a bit less in general.

Looks like I've got more reading to do now - and I'll see if I can arrange to get some bogwood for the plec

 

[K-Holed]

Alot people have a downer on UGF. There seems to be a misconception that they are bad filters. From a biologial standpoint, UGF are excellent (much better than HOB IMO). That isn't to say that they are without their problems.

It has been reported that the constant flow of water through the substrate can disturb plants and from my own experience I can confirm that I never had much luck with plants using an UGF.

They are in many ways a high maintainance filter and will require completely stripping periodically.

They are only really effective as a biological filter (and a good one at that). The mechanical filteration they perform is the exact reason why you need to keep on top of your substrate cleaning.

If I was starting a new tank, I'd go for a canister filter. UGF are a little old school now and most people want an easy life.

 

[OldMan47]

A UGF can work fine with regular gravel vacs. The thing you are trying to do with a UGF is use the gravel as a sort of inefficient mechanical filter but more importantly to use the surfaces of the individual bits of gravel as growing sites for the beneficial bacteria for you biological filtration. A gravel vac can be used to remove the dirt that tends to get filtered out by that coarse filter action and makes it easier to get good water flow through the gravel. That means that the entire gravel surface, not just the part you see on top, can be used as biological media. In order to promote nice even water flows through the gravel, the entire gravel should be vacuumed regularly and when you are done the gravel should be roughly leveled so that it is about the same thickness all over the tank bottom. If you do that, you will find that you have an excellent long term sustainable biofilter. A hang on back filter is far easier to use properly so people are biased to use them instead. You simply pull out the media and rinse it in used tank water, then return it where it came from. You can even leave it running while you do it. A canister, the most common type in my fish room, is not as easy to clean but only needs cleaning every few months. That means less frequent maintenance for me but it takes a good 10 minutes to clean one properly. A canister has the advantage of having almost as much biological capacity as a UGF and allows me to shape the gravel, or any other substrate that I wish, to any shape that I want. Each of these methods of filtration has its advantages and disadvantages, there really is no "best" filter for every aspect. I also use sponge filters in many of my tanks because they allow me to use a single air pump to power several filters. It is an old school way of doing things but I am old school in many ways. I learned about UGFs when they were the new "best possible" filter to come onto the market. For people accustomed to power filters, they are antiquated equipment.

 

[Neesmo]

Undergravel filters are sufficient for biological filtration but tend to lack in chemical filtration and most have no activated carbon or ammonia remover. They will also get to a point where they dont run as efficiently because they do need to be pulled out and cleaned. This is where a HOB shines. Very easy to clean and they have a more complete filtration setup with mechanical, chemical and biological filtration

Im not hating on undergravel filters, I thought I was making that clear enough and HOB arent just "better" than UGFs. Its not that clear cut and I wasnt trying to make it sound like that. I was saying that overall and especially for a newbie, I would say that a HOB is a better filter. It is easier to maintain and clean, it has a more complete filtering capability and is better able to handle all conditions with checmical filtration added.
By all means stick with the UGF it will do its job. There is more benifits to using a HOB then there is to using a UGF

Kyle

 

[K-Holed]

The filter isnt adequate as far as the ability to build up a good bacterial base. I would recommend a HOB in this case and besides the better ability to handle a larger bio load and buildup of good bacteria it is MUCH easier to maintain and clean.

My main argument was built around this statement. I was just stating that in my opinion, UGF have a better ability for biological filteration than a HOB. I completely agree on the cleaning side of things though.

 

[Neesmo]

I see what your saying. That one was off base, I admit that.
Follow what I was saying in later posts for a more accurate assesment of UGFs IMO anyways

Kyle

 

[Lady Moogie]

I've ordered a gravel vacuum/syphon today and will put it to good use as soon as is arrives! (they've only got massive ones in stock at the LFS at the moment, so had to order online instead for speed)

Checking all the fish today, it looks like one of the golden barbs & the flying fox have a lose scale on their heads (or is there something else this could be?). At least, I think that's what it is, they don't stay still close enough to the front of the tank for me to really check! It doesn't look like cotton wool, nor white spot - the colour is the same as the scales around it and although it's protruding, it appears flat rather than lump-like.

I presume this is down to water quality - probably from the used gravel. Can't wait to get it cleaned up. Is there anything else it might be and should I be looking at any kind of medication? We've just done 3 days of API Melafix (which the bottle says is the right course when adding new fish) in case of any problems with the newcomers, but I could continue it for another 4 days if there's a problem.

I did notice the barb glancing off the gravel a few times - but certainly not constantly. The guppies do it on and off (which LFS told me is normal for guppies?).

Yet to do a water test today, as this is the other half's job - will have him do his chemist act when he gets home from work.


Thanks for the continued help & advice.

 

[Lady Moogie]

Sorry - just had another thought.

My other half isn't keen on running 2 filters in the tank (ie, the Fluval 2plus we've found in our box of goodies alongside the aquaclear 30 powerhead on the UGF) ... would our filtration be improved with a different powerhead, eg the aquaclear 70? - which I assume would double our filtration?

 

[Neesmo]

Why would you not be keen on running 2 filters? I run 3 filters on some tanks. The more the better..

 

[Lady Moogie]

He doesn't want another "ugly box" in the tank! But, I'll try to convince him - good to know that other people run multiple filters. I've already gone ahead and ordered a replacement suction cup bracket for the Fluval 2plus, since we didn't have one. Hopefully we'll be able to get the extra filter running when we do a water change on Wednesday evening - levels will be low enough for us to remove the plug & run the cable out of the tank

Thanks

 

[Neesmo]

cool. I personally like having multiple filters running on my tanks but this would be a personal preference. Do you guys have a background on your tank? There are some decent looking ones out there but, again thats one of those things that some people like and some dont lol

I can understand not wanting another thing cluttering up your tank. Thats another big advantage to the undergravel filters. Makes for a clean looking tank

 

[Lady Moogie]

We do have a background, though not one of our choosing - it came with the tank, and has been glued on in such a way that we couldn't easily peel it off! Still, looks ok
I'll have to post some pics sometime!