Newbie Question! How Many More Fish?

[Lady Moogie]

Hi all and thanks for this great resource of a forum I've found some posts here really helpful but thought it would be most beneficial for me to ask about my tank specifically.
Unfortunately I just spent about half an hour typing about it and accidentally hit the back button on my mouse and lost the post. Argh! Here I go again

My other half and I are keen anglers, really love fish (not to eat!) - although I don't know how most aquarists feel about anglers, so please don't hold it against me. I know quite a few anglers who also keep tropicals.

We've been keen to get a tank for some time now and finally found one locally on Ebay at the start of February for a great price, including stand, heater, undergravel filter with Aquaclear powerhead and with gravel too. The tank is 120l, 32" long, 12" wide and 16" tall. The chap who sold it to us said he'd rinsed the gravel and returned it to the tank, and we were best not washing it fully as it would help get our bacteria levels going. He told us to get some 'starter' too, and some watersafe, to prep our tap water for the tank.

The next day we went to our LFS for these products, and were given a bagful of gravel for free as an alternative to starter. We bought some watersafe and also some fake plants (we were told real plants struggle with an undergravel filter, so best starting with fakes). We also found some great pieces of granite, flint and crystal rock to put in, which we cleaned as instructed and put in the tank during the first week of it running. Although the guy we bought the tank from said we should wait 2-3 weeks before adding any fish, the guy in the shop said that once the water was clear, we could add a few hardy fish to get things going.

Well, the water cleared (clear enough to read a book through the length of the tank, as suggested) within a few days and was up to temperature (25-27°c) and my other half was keen to put fish in. I managed to make him wait a week, at which point we went back to the shop for our first few occupants. We decided on a pair of flametail guppies and a pair of cobra guppies - he threw in an extra cobra for free. Absolutely beautiful. We were going to leave it at that, but the chap in the shop was very keen to let us have a golden nugget plec for a third of their usual price (£10 instead of £30). He really seems to have taken a shine to us, as you'll see from the rest of this 'story'. We hadn't heard of these guys before so we asked if he was hardy enough to be in our first group of fish. We were told plecs are very hardy and will help with algae, so as this one was so beautiful we decided to have him. With hindsight, we probably shouldn't have, especially as I gather they can grow up to 6 inches in their long lives.

After floating the fish in their bags for over half an hour we released them and all was well.

A week later we went back to see if we could add a couple more, intending to get something like a pair of gourami. We were advised against gourami due to their size, but in the same tank we saw some gorgeous bluey neon guppies. We decided to take 3 of these, but the chap threw in an extra 4 male guppies (2 blueish, 2 yellowish, all with orange tails... not sure what they are quite) we hadn't asked for. He said they were freebies (again!). We then saw some rainbow sharks and asked how they are in a community tank - not necessarily to buy one then and there. He told us they're actually loaches and are fine for a community tank. I said we should add one in a week or so but he said it would be fine to go in now if we wanted it, so we ended up buying him too. You're probably all cringing at this point about the amount of fish. Bear with me please! Things get worse before they get better. We're still keen to have a pair of something different, and spot some yellowtail congo tetra. We got a pair of these, which seemed very skittish and weren't sure if they'd survive or not.

So, having started with 5 guppies and a plec, we now somehow found ourselves with another 7 guppies, a rainbow shark and 2 tetra. Everyone but the tetra seemed happy on release. They shyed away somewhat and we didn't see much of them.

The next day, our beautiful plec died of unknown causes. We'd never seen him feed and found out online that as they are often starved before import, some simply won't take to eating again. His belly looked a bit sunken, but what do I know really as a newb? So I took him back to the shop and asked if they could see any sign of disease on his poor little body. Nothing obviously wrong, and our usual sales guy kindly offered to replace him at no charge. Well, I couldn't really say no to such an offer and took the replacement home. Also ordered him a cave in case he needed more shelter than our rocks & plants provided. He seems quite happy in it, and thankfully we have seen him feed. He's more active than the first one and seems far happier.

The next day I noticed a couple of cobra guppies looking a bit poorly - straggly fins, and possibly some white spots. I noticed the tetra also seemed to have a few spots. Being outside of business hours, I called my uncle to see if he had any tank medications or any advice. He came by and agreed they looked like they had white spot, as well as possible fin rot (or possibly some very nasty nips). He suggested we raise the tank temperature slightly to help combat the white spot and that we should get medicine the next day. He did a nitrite test too, which came back at 0. He thought the tank was not yet cycled properly and overstocked - we'd probably lose a few fish. He wasn't wrong.

The next morning the two tetras were floating and the cobras didn't look well at all. I got down to the LFS for opening time and was sold some Protozin to cover all bases. Our usual guy wasn't there, and the chap I spoke with asked a bit about the tank and said we had too much in there too soon, and that the other guy should have told us to wait another few weeks. Too late for that though, so I took the meds home and treated the tank as instructed (3 days of meds, 2 days off, 1 day on). Unfortunately the meds came too late for the cobras, who also died within 24 hours of starting the meds (their fins by now were down to just spines). The rainbow shark too was showing signs of tail rot and within a few days he was in the same state as the cobras, and didn't make it. We did a 10% water change (which we will now be doing weekly) and tested the levels with our recently purchased API Master test kit.
NitrItes 0
Anmmonia trace
NitrAtes 10-20
pH 7.8

Which from what I've read indicates the tank is cycled? My uncle thought we weren't even in the bad stage when he'd tested and found no nitrItes, but I guess it's possible that with all the gravel being second hand, our biological filter is cycled already as I understand we shouldn't have any nitrAtes during 'new tank syndrome'.

Despite it seeming like we may already be through the bad patch and properly cycled etc, we knew we shouldn't get any more fish for a few weeks yet. However, algae was forming on the front of the tank and our golden nugget isn't as great with the algae as we'd hoped so, we went to the LFS yesterday to get a magnetic scraper.

Our usual guy was in and asked how things were going - so we told him! He was sorry to hear of our losses and immediately went to get us some replacements, offering us some neon tetras. I made it clear we're not very keen on neon tetras, and besides - the tank shouldn't have any more fish for a few more weeks yet, right? We mentioned our test results but said again that we want to wait a while before getting more fish. Well, he still decided to show us some more fish and I made the mistake of saying how lovely one in particular was - looked rather like a Flying Fox, but suspect it's a Siamese Algae Eater or false SAE. Before we knew it our sales guy had netted the little fella and I thought I'd try to turn it down by asking the price - to which he responded, this one's free! Okay, so we thought maybe just the one wouldn't hurt, but the guy then went on to add 4 glowlight tetra and accidentally netted 2 golden barbs into the bag too (which we had planned on having eventually, as they're said to be peaceful and grow to a few inches, so make nice feature fish). He insisted these were all freebies and gave us the bag. I'd tried to politely decline, but it just didn't work and we found ourselves with these 7 new fish for free.

He then went on to tell us how fin rot can be a result of poor water quality, had us remind him what filter we have and said he had "just the thing" for us. He showed us some cherry red shrimps and said how great they are for cleaning up the gravel. I'm not fond of shrimps at all, they're like water insects to me, sorry! So, I told him I thought they were creepy, but my other half said they were nice and asked how big they get. While I was distracted looking at the bigger ones in another tank, our guy had fished out 4 of these little red things and gave them to us as well. That's £16 of shrimps for free. At this point I managed to draw our attention back to the need of a cleaning magnet, which he sold to us at half price and we came home.

Suffice to say I was very anxious about adding so many more fish at this early stage, when we hadn't intended to. But there was simply no telling him 'no'! I don't mean to sound like I'm blaming someone else, but I feel rather pushed into having these extra (all be they, lovely - and free) fish. I'm just glad I was there too, as my other half would probably have come back with even more

Anyway, we noticed a few have damaged fins (he did mention they'd been in a display tank - we think the one with the red tailed black shark) so we're using some API melafix at the moment to avoid any fin rot etc and hopefully help them heal. They do all seem happy and are all feeding. I was worried the plec might get upset about the new tankmates, but he seems absolutely fine.

The shrimps are mostly out of sight, although today we found something that was either a moulted skin or the remains of one. Can't think who might have eaten one though, only plec has a big enough mouth!

Anyway, to my actual question, after all this rambling & background...

Our tank now has:
10 male guppies (I know, we need some females... and we'd only actually wanted 8 of the 12 we had)
2 small golden barbs
4 glowlight tetras
1 golden nugget plec
1 (false?) siamese algae eater(?)
4 cherry red shrimps

and to recap, the tank is is:
120l (32x16x12)
~27°c
pH7.8
0 NitrItes
0-trace ammonia
10-20 NitrAtes
undergravel filter with aquaclear powerhead
running for 4 weeks (used gravel)


If you read the whole post, you know we didn't choose half the fish. Now, there are still some we'd really like to add, and we don't want to get rid of any of our 'pets' if we don't have to - but we need to know how many of these we can actually add, if any (obviously not right away).

4-6 female guppies to keep the males in check - they're getting a bit feisty with each other now and I wonder if it was nipping rather than fin rot? (I know now we should have 3:1 female:male, oops)
6 pygmy or panda cories
1 male siamese fighting fish
1 pair of ?? any thoughts?


I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of people telling me we've got too many fish already, and I'm sorry that's the situation Best laid plans, and all that...
Any feedback, constructive crits etc welcome. I know we will likely eventually need a bigger tank for the plec or to rehome him. We'd actually like to get another tank eventually, but as beginners we need to get some experience under our belts first!

Is our tank full already? Can we add anything else in a few weeks? Will that amount of cories be ok to add, since they stay on the bottom anyway?

Thanks so much for your time in reading this and any advice you can offer. Much appreciated

Moogie (Dorset, UK)

 

[Neesmo]

wow, you sure can type a book

Im going to read it now and see if I can help

Kyle

 

[jacko32]

your golden nugget would really appreciate a nice piece of wood also if you did add some wood you could tie a nice anubias plant to it which would also help with your water quality
just an idea

 

[Lady Moogie]

Yeah, sorry about the long post there, I just like to give as much info as I can, to get as accurate an answer as possible also saves me constantly answering extra questions if I answer them before they're asked!

We were advised against bogwood at the LFS as (although they sell it) they said it will always leech brown into the water and makes the water more...er... alkali I think? If there's a good way to clean it up enough to add it without affecting the water negatively, it'd look great in the tank - and another uncle of mine has several nice bits of it going spare at the moment.

I hear a lot of talk of 'water quality', but aside from the test kit, is there anything else I should be checking? It's totally clear, doesn't smell very strong and doesn't have any noticeable debris floating around!

 

[Neesmo]

OK im done reading and first off I wouldnt add live plants because they dont do well with undergravel filters and would likely end up causing more nitrite issues then you need when the plant starts to die.
Second I would NOT add any female guppies as you would need to add 30 for the females to live which for obvious reasons will not work. The rule is to keep 3:1 as you stated, any less and they will get beaten and die(quickly too)
If you have any hopes of adding more fish then the first thing you need to do is go buy a hang on the back filter and start cycling that filter while keeping the undergravel in the tank. You will need to let the HOB filter build up its bio material. Undergravel will not keep up to your goals

I am appaulled by the LFS guy that you have been dealing with. Seems like he has good intentions but in the end he isnt helping the situation.

It is perfectly accepted to sell your "pets" or trade them back to the LFS and get the fish you want. I would take back the fish you dont want and trade for the ones you do. I would only do so when you have the propper biological material buildup in a propper filter

Ill keep thinking on this and add more as I think of it


water quality also boils down to the good bacteria you have built up in your media. This is what maintains the bio load on a tank that is over stocked and keeps ammonia spikes down

Kyle

 

[Neesmo]

Yeah, sorry about the long post there, I just like to give as much info as I can, to get as accurate an answer as possible also saves me constantly answering extra questions if I answer them before they're asked!

We were advised against bogwood at the LFS as (although they sell it) they said it will always leech brown into the water and makes the water more...er... alkali I think? If there's a good way to clean it up enough to add it without affecting the water negatively, it'd look great in the tank - and another uncle of mine has several nice bits of it going spare at the moment.

I hear a lot of talk of 'water quality', but aside from the test kit, is there anything else I should be checking? It's totally clear, doesn't smell very strong and doesn't have any noticeable debris floating around!

Your tank isnt so much overstocked, your tank is underfiltered for the amount of fish you have.
The best way to keep new bogwood from adding tanins to the water would be to boil it for a while and then soak it in a pail to see if it releases more colour. If it adds nothing to the pail water over a couple days then its fine to add it to the tank. Bogwood will lower the PH but that isnt such a big deal for basic tropical fish like guppies etc. Cichlids would be more of a concern with PH drops

To confirm the SAE being true or a flying fox we would need to see pictures but most store boughts are just flying foxes from my understanding

 

[jacko32]

Yeah, sorry about the long post there, I just like to give as much info as I can, to get as accurate an answer as possible also saves me constantly answering extra questions if I answer them before they're asked!

We were advised against bogwood at the LFS as (although they sell it) they said it will always leech brown into the water and makes the water more...er... alkali I think? If there's a good way to clean it up enough to add it without affecting the water negatively, it'd look great in the tank - and another uncle of mine has several nice bits of it going spare at the moment.

I hear a lot of talk of 'water quality', but aside from the test kit, is there anything else I should be checking? It's totally clear, doesn't smell very strong and doesn't have any noticeable debris floating around!

you can soak the wood in boiling water leave it to saok for 24hours then most of the tanning will soak out it will lower your pH but only slightly and very slowly but your golden nugget needs it.
GN's will eat most food left over from other fish as well as grazing on algae and "chewing" on bogwood to supplement its diet with fibre. A good algae wafer and fresh veg should be fed frequently.
Can be aggresive towards smaller fish, and will indeed attempt to eat small fish such as Tetras when it reaches adult size. Territorial and will chase away rival Plecos and other bottom feeders.
The GN should be given plenty of bogwood to graze upon and a defined territory with as many caves as possible, ideally feed fresh veg twice weekly and feed before lights out as this fish is nocturnal.
Common Problems: As with most bottom feeders the Gold Nugget is susceptable to bacterial infection and fungus which cultivates in the gravel/sand bed, regular vacuuming of the substrate is neccesary.
hopefully this will help you out a bit

 

[fish_tank0311]

I really would like to help you but i aint reading all of that hehe . Good on you for doing as much as you can to get the help you need.

 

[Lady Moogie]

Thanks for all the replies so far, very helpful stuff!

Your tank isnt so much overstocked, your tank is underfiltered for the amount of fish you have.
The best way to keep new bogwood from adding tanins to the water would be to boil it for a while and then soak it in a pail to see if it releases more colour. If it adds nothing to the pail water over a couple days then its fine to add it to the tank. Bogwood will lower the PH but that isnt such a big deal for basic tropical fish like guppies etc. Cichlids would be more of a concern with PH drops

To confirm the SAE being true or a flying fox we would need to see pictures but most store boughts are just flying foxes from my understanding

That really surprises me (tho bear in mind I'm a newb ) as I was told the undergravel filter was the best thing for a tank our size & with the powerhead I guess I just assumed if anything we were more than filtered enough, particularly with such clear water and with our levels seeming so good. Or is it just that we're already pushing the limit for our current setup? I'm just curious to know how you can tell we're underfiltered? (in no way do I mean for this to sound rude or ungrateful for your comments)

Thanks for the bogwood tip, nice to know it will lower the PH too. Will have to try clean some up!

Here are some pics of the algae eater, best I've managed to get so far as he's very quick. His fins have a yellowish hue and the stripe on his tail doesn't go beyond the muscular part. I can't check how many whiskers he has, he doesn't stay still long enough!

 

[Assaye]

Our tank now has:
10 male guppies (I know, we need some females... and we'd only actually wanted 8 of the 12 we had)
2 small golden barbs
4 glowlight tetras
1 golden nugget plec
1 (false?) siamese algae eater(?)
4 cherry red shrimps

No, you don't need female guppies! If you add females, you'll need to add 20, which your tank can't support, and you'd end up with lots and lots and lots of babies. Please don't add any females.

Golden barbs need some buddies - should have about 6 as a minimum. Same for glowlights.

Golden nugget is fine, IMO.

False SAE - will probably become too boisterous and aggressive for such a small tank and so many tank mates. To keep him happy and compatible with your other fish you would be looking to upgrade. You can see how it goes but this is what I would advise. Alternatively, you could rehome him.

Shrimp - they grow on you! Lovely bottom feeders, would benifit from some buddies. The more there are, the better job they do and the nicer they look. Up to you, though.

So at the moment you have about 35 inches of fish, if we take into account the average adult size of the fish and if we don't include the shrimp. The "inch per gallon rule" is a very rough guide to how many fish are suitable for a peaceful community tank (like yours). Your tank is about 25 gallons so really, you are overstocked already. The reason you don't look over stocked is because your fish are all still quite young.

If you add new fish, your priority should be getting the barbs and tetras into bigger groups. In small groups they will get stressed, will not behave in a natural manner and may become sick due to the stress.

and to recap, the tank is is:
120l (32x16x12)
~27°c
pH7.8
0 NitrItes
0-trace ammonia
10-20 NitrAtes
undergravel filter with aquaclear powerhead
running for 4 weeks (used gravel)

Leave the tank for several weeks. I would give it about a month to really settle down. The ammonia needs to be a definite zero. It is looking OK at the moment but with all your deaths you need to be really careful.

If you read the whole post, you know we didn't choose half the fish. Now, there are still some we'd really like to add, and we don't want to get rid of any of our 'pets' if we don't have to - but we need to know how many of these we can actually add, if any (obviously not right away).

I'll be honest - I don't think you should add anymore fish to the tank other than the ones to boost the shoal sizes of the tetras and barbs. I know you didn't choose all the fish but they do need to come first. If you want more fish, consider a larger tank or a second tank.

4-6 female guppies to keep the males in check - they're getting a bit feisty with each other now and I wonder if it was nipping rather than fin rot? (I know now we should have 3:1 female:male, oops)
6 pygmy or panda cories
1 male siamese fighting fish
1 pair of ?? any thoughts?

NO to female guppies. As I said, you should have 2 per male, as a minimum. If you have fewer than that, they will become very stressed due to the male attentions. If you have 4-6 females, they'll effectively receive too much attention from the males. Not nice.

You don't have space for the corys unless you rehome some fish. Nice addition for your tank, you just don't have the space at the moment.

Male betta (AKA siamese fighter) - IMO, these guys should have their own tanks. They are very unpredictable and can be bullied or the bully. They would probably also attack the guppies - seeing those pretty tails tends to make them think the guppies are rivals! Might also be picked on by the false SAE. Also, no space in your set-up.

Sorry to dissapoint. It sounds like you've had quite an adventure. Now you need to focus on the fish you've acquired and make sure they grow up to be healthy, happy specimens. If you want to add these extra fish, you'll seriously need to consider upgrading to a 45-55 gallon tank which would give you enough space for the fish you need to add (the barbs and tetras) and a few of the fish you want to add (minus the female guppies and betta).

An extra filter would help in terms of the bio-load of the fish, but don't let anyone fool you into thinking you can squeese extra stock in there. It's not all about chemicals and waste - fish need swimming space, terriatories and hide-aways. They need enough appropriate decor to make them feel safe (so silk plants, bog wood, rocks etc). This all takes away water volume and even the best filter in the world doesn't make your tank bigger and give fish more room. It is however correct that UGFs tend to be a tad useless - you can't have live plants, they are hard to clean and when you do clean them, you need to take the tank apart!

 

[Lady Moogie]

The tank did come with an extra hang on filter thing (excuse my lack of technical terms), so maybe we need to set that up to. I was led to believe undergravel was the best, especially with a powerhead on top.

Guess we'll leave things as they are fish-wise and possibly try to rehome some guppies in favour of some additional tetras to boost that shoal. The books we've got say barbs should be happy in pairs, and these certainly seem happy enough - but we'll see. I guess a few more tetras is the priority in about a month.

thanks all

 

[Neesmo]

I agree with everything above. You have a flying fox from what I can see.
Look at the tail to tell. A true SAE has the black side stripe down to the end of its tail. A flying fox has a clear tail where the stripe stops before the clear

There is no need for female guppies in the tank.
If you dont like the current fish then rehome them or trade them back to the store for the ones you want, this is a common thing to do and it isnt rude or cruel as long as they go to a good home. I would keep this fish for now personally until you really know where your at.
The filter isnt adequate as far as the ability to build up a good bacterial base. I would recommend a HOB in this case and besides the better ability to handle a larger bio load and buildup of good bacteria it is MUCH easier to maintain and clean. You will end up moving away from the undergravel unit sooner or later so you might as well do so now. Like Assaye mentioned, more filters wont allow you to have more fish, but it will handle the bio load more efficiently. Just because your ammonia levels are good now doesnt mean it cant spike.

Kyle

 

[Neesmo]

The tank did come with an extra hang on filter thing (excuse my lack of technical terms), so maybe we need to set that up to. I was led to believe undergravel was the best, especially with a powerhead on top.

Guess we'll leave things as they are fish-wise and possibly try to rehome some guppies in favour of some additional tetras to boost that shoal. The books we've got say barbs should be happy in pairs, and these certainly seem happy enough - but we'll see. I guess a few more tetras is the priority in about a month.

thanks all

What brand of HOB filter is it? Even leave them both running. Undergravel filters are sufficient for biological filtration but tend to lack in chemical filtration and most have no activated carbon or ammonia remover. They will also get to a point where they dont run as efficiently because they do need to be pulled out and cleaned. This is where a HOB shines. Very easy to clean and they have a more complete filtration setup with mechanical, chemical and biological filtration
Barbs will benefit and be happier in a shoal, though its not imparative.

 

[OldMan47]

A mature undergravel filter is the most effective biological filter that you can have, but not the easiest to care for. On the other hand, an immature UGF is as useless as any other biological filter is until it has the chance to mature. You have a heavily stocked tank but one that should be able to support its present population once the filter has a chance to mature. A trace of ammonia is an indication that the cycle on your filter may not have started yet. If you left behind filthy gravel, you may be introducing organics into the water, which will decompose into ammonia even if the gravel filter has matured. Either way, it will be important to stay on top of testing your water so that you will be able to tell when a water change is needed to control ammonia or nitrites. The relatively heavy fish population that you presently have will mean you need to change more like 25% to 30% of the water weekly, not merely 10%.

 

[Lady Moogie]

Our LFS guy suggested adding some coal or activated carbon lumps to the tank, which I guess would work in a similar way to the carbon filter? He seemed to think so. Will check what the other filter is, about to do a water change this morning - will see how the ammonia is and try to do a couple of buckets today.
The UGF was also 'used' and the guy also suggested we leave it as it is, presumably because it was already matured?

I'm really surprised to hear that HOB filters are better than UGFs, I'd been led to believe otherwise by just about everyone - relatives, LFS, guy who sold it to us & books!

Think we're going to just keep what we've got fish-wise and see how they do. A tank is a long term commitment afterall, and the guppies at least will be gone in about a year, at which point we can replace them.

Thanks for the ID on 'Mr Fantastic' (that's what we call the Fox). He seems to have cleaned up the bit of brown algae we'd had developing on a leaf, so he's a great little guy!