New Uncycled Guppy And Neon Tetra Tank

[KittyKat]

i would turn the temp up a bit more within the ranges given above, im pretty sure a higher temp will help the cycle move a bit quicker.

It will help the cycle along, but also the toxicity of ammonia increases with temperature as well so the fish will be harmed more. It's a double edges sword sort of thing, same as with pH.

 

[moochy13]

that did cross my mind, but if the OP is doing regular big water changes i was thinking it might not be so much of a worry, and worth a go.

 

[KittyKat]

that did cross my mind, but if the OP is doing regular big water changes i was thinking it might not be so much of a worry, and worth a go.

It's up to them, but I would not increase temperature until ammonia stays unreadable for 12 hours at a time as even unreadable quantities can cause long term harm, let alone ones which give a definite reading.

 

[neoyyf]

Sorry for the late reply and thank you all for your responses! I worked a late shift today and didnt get home till late. But I will tell you what I did this morning.

I always check my water first thing after getting up and whilst waiting for the test solution to turn green, I decided to feed my fishies some microworm and crushed pelleted food. I always take my time to feed them tiny amounts so that I can watch them eat happily. I turned around to look at the test tube and found that ammonia had shot up to 8ppm!! I have ever had that before and I dont know how this came to be but I know I fed them twice yesterday for the first time in medium quantities. I also added some juvenile Amazon Frogbit to the surface but I had to remove a lot of dead leaves. I dont know if that has added to the ammonia. I looked for other dead things but could find none. After a 90% water change, I added a double dose of ammonia remover to the remaining 10% water.

Just checked the temp and actually I had put it up few weeks ago so it was running at 24 degrees celcius. I have now put it down to 22 degrees celcius as I am aware about the double edged sword thing and would rather have the ammonia less lethal for the fish.

I dont really know how to quote but will try my best to answer questions and ask a few more regarding comments, here we go:

What are the readings in the fry tank? What is the pH? Also, fry do not produce as much ammonia as 70 adult fish.

The readings are generally the same to the large tank except ammonia is sometimes less or a little more. pH is the same but I have a motorised filter in there rather than sponge filter. The filter only agitates the water surface a little and the temperature fluctuates from 18-20 degrees.

Put the light on a timer and the IAL won't have a negative affect, although add to the ammonia.

What does IAL mean?

Your current aim is to get the ammonia as close to 0 ppm as possible. Once you start reading 0 ppm, start feeding food, slowly increasing the amount.

I only just read this now in the midst of so much info, do I really not feed at all until ammonia is 0? How many days roughly would this be?

maybe some are pregnant?

I hadnt thought about this because the ones going thin were all males. BUT I did find some males that died not looking thin at all. Some even looked pregnant and I hae since found that this is probably due to constipation. I will definitely feed powdered spirulina a little more than the other stuff I have been feeding them.

Just to be sure, that does the poo of the thin ones look like? Do they have anything hanging out of their arses?

Nope, they just look starved and dont want to eat. Nothing comes out their bottom. I feed every other day, yet when I see the thin ill ones, they die in less than a week.

Also don't know if you have one but if you can get an Aqueon Water changer

This equipment sounds like it is the same as a normal hose pipe connected to the tap? I think to get the water out of the tank, I will still need my bucket. My fish tank is the kitchen so the tap is nearby. And the garden is outside my kitchen so I just pour the used water out into the garden. I may get myself a cheap hose with a tap connector but will follow kittykats advice on taking the filters out when using hoses.

What about the fact that his tanks have been running for years and yours is brand new?

I did tell him that! But he said he only water changed 20% once a week on all his new tanks and forever more. I dont know if it is true but I know my fish are dying even though i water change daily! It was just so weird how he just told me point blank that I was wrong on the things we all know are true, like the things I mentioned in my first post that he said.

Most of you have said that I need a new filter. I will therefore get one, but still I would want a sponge driven one because I dont want my guppies getting sucked into the filter. I have seen guppies get sucked into external filters and even my snail got stuck in the motorised filter in the fry tank. I will take the motorised filter out and put in a small sponge filter that i have lying around once I find it.

if you ever get a new filter, make sure you find out how to upgrade filters properly without losing your bacterial colony.

I have never changed filters before but I googled a little about this and is the correct way to take out the media of the old filter and leave it in the tank for 1 week whilst having the new filter run?

If you expect *any* of your fish to die, then this is probably not the right hobby for you and you should look into something that doesn't involve live animals.

This comment is very true. There is no point in keeping live animals as a hobby just for them to die. However, what I meant was that I knew some would die mainly due to stress from the move, or from being picked at etc as this is what I have known since a kid. This may be a wrong outlook but fish die all the time and I ALWAYS see a dead fish in a pet shop, sometimes as bad as one in every few tanks. It is something I expect from time to time and the reason why people like guppies is because they breed quicker than they die. Obviously I would much prefer a scenario where no fish were to die, but I thought that was unrealistic. I also had no idea that ammonia poisoning could be this severe especially since as a child my fish did not exhibit ammonia poisoning, no bloody streaks, no clamped fins. The only difference here is that I want to grow bacteria in the filter this time and I didnt do a 95% water change everyday like I did as a child. Now that I do know better, I will do 90% water changes everyday (with dechlorinated warer of course!).

Glass shrimp do not kill live adult fish, but will eat dead ones.

You would be surprised. The ones that I had were about 5cm-7cm long, rather big shrimps but dont think they were macros as their claws were quite small. At first I saw them eat dead fish and my first thought was, "Great cleanup crew!" then later I saw one eating a guppy alive from it's tail! The guppy was still breathing but the shrimp had already got to past the base of the tail and all I could say was "Oh no, oh no..." whilst banging on the glass. The shrimp didnt even flinch so I had to get a net to move it before it let go. I put the guppy in a breeder net and the next day it had no head!!! The shrimps somehow ate the guppy through the mesh though I actually never witnessed this. Even at this point I thought perhaps that guppy was ill and was nearly dying so that's why they attacked it. I still did not take the shrimps out of the tank until one day I was testing the water, I saw with my own eyes one of the glass shrimp catch one of the fast moving neon tetras by the tail and started eating it alive from the tail! Again I had to use the net before it let go! My poor tetra lost a bit of its tail and has been discoloured ever since, its colours are washed/faded out. I quickly put the shrimps in a tub and later swapped them for amano shrimp.

The tank probably couldn't support more than 1-2 Amazon swords.

I didnt know there was a bioload for plants, I thought you could plant as many plants as you wanted in any tank. Maybe I am missing something?

The "ammonia remover" probably only converts ammonia to ammonium

I did do a little research on ammonia removers before getting one. I read that yes they convert ammonia to ammonium but the latter is almost non-toxic to fish. I am unsure about this but the reason why ammonia is less toxic in low ph is because acid (low ph) converts the ammonia to ammonium to some degree.

what is your tap water ammonia reading after you dechloriante?

I have tested tap water which gives a reading of 0 ammonia but didnt think decholrinated water would be different. I did test it after you asked the question and the ammonia is still at 0.


Well it's 3am now, and I am sorry if I missed any other questions but I am off to sleep to rest up before I do my 90% water change when I awake!

 

[Rickzayne]

I'm not sure what ammonia test kit you have, but my test you have to compare instantly or the water gets greener and gives false results...

Also don't double feed!

 

[HayzH]

I'm not sure what ammonia test kit you have, but my test you have to compare instantly or the water gets greener and gives false results...

Also don't double feed!

I have the API testing kit...this one you have to wait for it to finish dont you???

 

[Rickzayne]

Not sure tbh

Mine is

Ph instant
Ammonia instant
Nitrite 2 mins
Nitrate 5 mins

But mines the nutrifin tester

 

[HayzH]

can anyone else help?

 

[Overload]

can anyone else help?

The PH is instant, but I do think the others have a 5 min developing time

 

[HayzH]

can anyone else help?

The PH is instant, but I do think the others have a 5 min developing time

i thought that too. really should read the instuctions

 

[neoyyf]

Yep, with the API test kit, you need to wait 5 minutes for the ammonia. I wait about 10 minutes though just incase and I have left test solutions overnight without it getting darker or lighter so I dont think waiting longer will give false readings..

 

[KittyKat]

I turned around to look at the test tube and found that ammonia had shot up to 8ppm!! I have ever had that before and I dont know how this came to be but I know I fed them twice yesterday for the first time in medium quantities. I also added some juvenile Amazon Frogbit to the surface but I had to remove a lot of dead leaves. I dont know if that has added to the ammonia. I looked for other dead things but could find none. After a 90% water change, I added a double dose of ammonia remover to the remaining 10% water.

I'm not sure what ammonia test kit you have, but my test you have to compare instantly or the water gets greener and gives false results...

Which one do you use? I've never seen a liquid one which given an immediate result, all the ones I have used require one to wait for 5 minutes while the reaction takes place.

What are the readings in the fry tank? What is the pH? Also, fry do not produce as much ammonia as 70 adult fish.

The readings are generally the same to the large tank except ammonia is sometimes less or a little more. pH is the same but I have a motorised filter in there rather than sponge filter. The filter only agitates the water surface a little and the temperature fluctuates from 18-20 degrees.

So you're getting the same problems in there two. Just because you can't see the affect of ammonia on the fry, that doesn't mean that there isn't. Until ammonia and nitrite remain at a constant 0 ppm, I recommend you treat it same as the large tank.

Put the light on a timer and the IAL won't have a negative affect, although add to the ammonia.

What does IAL mean?

Indian Almond Leaves.

Your current aim is to get the ammonia as close to 0 ppm as possible. Once you start reading 0 ppm, start feeding food, slowly increasing the amount.

I always check my water first thing after getting up and whilst waiting for the test solution to turn green, I decided to feed my fishies some microworm and crushed pelleted food. I always take my time to feed them tiny amounts so that I can watch them eat happily.
[…]
I only just read this now in the midst of so much info, do I really not feed at all until ammonia is 0? How many days roughly would this be?

Unfortunately it is more complicated than I make it out to be because fish obviously need *some* food but they are also able to survive in the long term without any. I can not predict how long your cycle will take, it is different for every single aquarium. It also depends on whether there are plants in the aquarium, how many and what type, as they use up ammonia and fish can feed on them *to some extent*.
If you feel that the fish need food, I recommend that you feed only prepared foods like flakes and pellets, and whole ones, not crushed. Small bits of food always make their way to the bottom and can start rotting, which is why I think it's better to not crush them. Live foods generally will release more ammonia than most prepared foods. Guppies and neons can take flakes in any size (they will be able to tear them into smaller pieces once the flakes are wet).

maybe some are pregnant?

I hadnt thought about this because the ones going thin were all males. BUT I did find some males that died not looking thin at all. Some even looked pregnant and I hae since found that this is probably due to constipation. I will definitely feed powdered spirulina a little more than the other stuff I have been feeding them.

Guppies are big enough to not need powdered foods, why don't you try to feed them boiled and de-shelled frozen peas? Squish or chop the peas into bite sized pieces.

Just to be sure, that does the poo of the thin ones look like? Do they have anything hanging out of their arses?

Nope, they just look starved and dont want to eat. Nothing comes out their bottom. I feed every other day, yet when I see the thin ill ones, they die in less than a week.

Ammonia decreases the fish's appetite, you see..

Also don't know if you have one but if you can get an Aqueon Water changer

This equipment sounds like it is the same as a normal hose pipe connected to the tap? I think to get the water out of the tank, I will still need my bucket. My fish tank is the kitchen so the tap is nearby. And the garden is outside my kitchen so I just pour the used water out into the garden. I may get myself a cheap hose with a tap connector but will follow kittykats advice on taking the filters out when using hoses.

It's not quite as simple as a pipe to the tap, there are three parts to it: it's connected to the tap, with the hose leading to the aquarium and it has another bit which points into the sink. The idea is that it can be used to first drain the tank, then to refill it. But if you drain the tank with a hose, always be extra careful to not drain the fish.. I use a guard over the hose to be sure.

What about the fact that his tanks have been running for years and yours is brand new?

I did tell him that! But he said he only water changed 20% once a week on all his new tanks and forever more. I dont know if it is true but I know my fish are dying even though i water change daily! It was just so weird how he just told me point blank that I was wrong on the things we all know are true, like the things I mentioned in my first post that he said.

Don't bother picking a fight with him, he's not worth the effort.

Most of you have said that I need a new filter. I will therefore get one, but still I would want a sponge driven one because I dont want my guppies getting sucked into the filter. I have seen guppies get sucked into external filters and even my snail got stuck in the motorised filter in the fry tank. I will take the motorised filter out and put in a small sponge filter that i have lying around once I find it.

There's no point upgrading to another sponge filter, it won't give you any benefits over the ones you already have. Add some more flow if you like, but I expect that 50% more air will only give you 5-10% more stocking space.
I am not sure what sort of externals you have seen, but an appropriately sides external with a guard over the inlet (which, as far as I am aware, all externals are sold with) should be fine because the whole in the inlet are usually only 1 mm wide, which is not anywhere wide enough for an adult guppy to fit through.
Which filter is the one in the small tank? The snails should not have been able to get in in the first place.

To be continued.. someone else please post so I can add the second half!

 

[Rickzayne]

 

[KittyKat]

if you ever get a new filter, make sure you find out how to upgrade filters properly without losing your bacterial colony.

I have never changed filters before but I googled a little about this and is the correct way to take out the media of the old filter and leave it in the tank for 1 week whilst having the new filter run?

You either need to run both (new and old) filters on the tank for 6 weeks, or even better, transfer *all* old media into the new filter. Leaving the old media floating around in the tank will do very little.

If you expect *any* of your fish to die, then this is probably not the right hobby for you and you should look into something that doesn't involve live animals.

This comment is very true. There is no point in keeping live animals as a hobby just for them to die. However, what I meant was that I knew some would die mainly due to stress from the move, or from being picked at etc as this is what I have known since a kid. This may be a wrong outlook but fish die all the time and I ALWAYS see a dead fish in a pet shop, sometimes as bad as one in every few tanks. It is something I expect from time to time and the reason why people like guppies is because they breed quicker than they die. Obviously I would much prefer a scenario where no fish were to die, but I thought that was unrealistic. I also had no idea that ammonia poisoning could be this severe especially since as a child my fish did not exhibit ammonia poisoning, no bloody streaks, no clamped fins. The only difference here is that I want to grow bacteria in the filter this time and I didnt do a 95% water change everyday like I did as a child. Now that I do know better, I will do 90% water changes everyday (with dechlorinated warer of course!).

No, none should die due to stress of moving because if the stress of moving is enough to have any effects which last for over half a day, then that means that the fish was not moved correctly. The most common reasons I can think of for fish to die shortly after moving is that something went wrong during the move (they got chilled or overheater), during acclimatisation (was not done or not done properly) or because the aquarium is not suitable for them (uncycled filter, incorrect set up, wrong tankmates). Guppies have a lifespan of 3-5 years, if they die earlier, it is most often because they were not cared for properly.

Don't say "fish die all the time", say "why do so many fish die and how can I make sure that mine don't?". These are most often not necessary deaths are a waste of a good pet. I have moved fish across 1000s of miles, even from one country to another country, when moving house, without losses. I think it is realistic to expect no losses when moving them 4 miles down the road, from the LFS to your house.

As for shops and dead fish, if I went into a shop and saw that, I would never come back again. I am lucky to have a very good one, but even in an ok one, someone should be checking for dead fish regularly and you should never see more than one or two, which will be removed when you point them out.

Your fish were probably some of the best cared for, if you did 95% water changes as a child! Even without a working filter, you probably kept ammonia low enough for the damage to not be visible.

Glass shrimp do not kill live adult fish, but will eat dead ones.

You would be surprised. The ones that I had were about 5cm-7cm long, rather big shrimps but dont think they were macros as their claws were quite small. At first I saw them eat dead fish and my first thought was, "Great cleanup crew!" then later I saw one eating a guppy alive from it's tail! The guppy was still breathing but the shrimp had already got to past the base of the tail and all I could say was "Oh no, oh no..." whilst banging on the glass. The shrimp didnt even flinch so I had to get a net to move it before it let go. I put the guppy in a breeder net and the next day it had no head!!! The shrimps somehow ate the guppy through the mesh though I actually never witnessed this. Even at this point I thought perhaps that guppy was ill and was nearly dying so that's why they attacked it. I still did not take the shrimps out of the tank until one day I was testing the water, I saw with my own eyes one of the glass shrimp catch one of the fast moving neon tetras by the tail and started eating it alive from the tail! Again I had to use the net before it let go! My poor tetra lost a bit of its tail and has been discoloured ever since, its colours are washed/faded out. I quickly put the shrimps in a tub and later swapped them for amano shrimp.

…it doesn't sound like your shrimp were glass shrimp because the species we call "glass shrimp" rarely grow to 5 cm and some max out at 2-4 cm and do not attack fish like that.

The tank probably couldn't support more than 1-2 Amazon swords.

I didnt know there was a bioload for plants, I thought you could plant as many plants as you wanted in any tank. Maybe I am missing something?

It's not quite the same as bio-load: swords are greedy plants (for nutrients) and I find that if a tank ends up with too many, they all start looking weak. I think you have more than enough to worry about without having to think about plants and fertilisation, so an Amazon sword or two and some other undemanding stem plants would work well. On top of that, floating plants are all great.

The "ammonia remover" probably only converts ammonia to ammonium

I did do a little research on ammonia removers before getting one. I read that yes they convert ammonia to ammonium but the latter is almost non-toxic to fish. I am unsure about this but the reason why ammonia is less toxic in low ph is because acid (low ph) converts the ammonia to ammonium to some degree.

So make sure that you keep using it and if someone tells you to stop, explain to them that it does that and that it is exactly what Prime does to make ammonia less toxic.

Ammonium is still toxic, but not quite as much as ammonia. Also, many plants will use ammonium up, so the filter doesn't have to bear the load by itself.

On the other hand, the ammonia to ammonium transformation is only temporary: the ammonium will revert back to ammonia, which is why it is important to do the water changes.

Yes, there is more ammonium present in the water than ammonia at low pH and the opposite at high pHs.

Filters can use both ammonia and ammonium, but the bacteria are not as good at processing the ammonia and ammonium at low pHs and if the pH drops low enough, the bacteria may stop working altogether. This is why we recommend the use of additives which "deal" with ammonia and we do NOT recommend messing about with pH. Also messing about with pH can harm the fish if it changes drastically.

what is your tap water ammonia reading after you dechloriante?

I have tested tap water which gives a reading of 0 ammonia but didnt think decholrinated water would be different. I did test it after you asked the question and the ammonia is still at 0.

So now you know that your tap water currently contains only chlorine, no chloramine.

 

[Miles_hot]

Good grief KK - that's an epic reply