New Tank Setup Questions

[DeaDRingeR]

Hey guys,

I had a 25 gallon freshwater tank setup about 3 years ago, but when we moved to a new house I was forced to shut it down due to transportation difficulties.
Well, I've decided to start it up again and I have a few questions for you fish experts out there. I probably should have asked these same questions when I setup my tank the first time but I didn't really know what I was getting into at the time.

Anyways,

1. How long should I have my tank up and running before I can start introducing fish? It's been operational with the heater and filter running along with all the plastic plants and rocks in place since about 7:30PM EST last night (so about 24 hours). I'm really anxious to get going so the sooner the better.

2. I should introduce some cheap tester fish first before spending any more money on more elaborate fish, correct?

3. Even before the tester fish, should I be testing the water? What am I looking for and how can I go about doing it?

4. Once I get everything going, I have my eyes set on a few fish. Namely a (small) Bala Shark, at few Celebese Rainbows, a Black Ghost Knifefish, 2 Rhino Plecos (for maintaining cleanliness) and if space permits a few guppies. I know that the Bala Shark and BGK will grow quite large, but they are 2 of my favorite fish and I figure I will trade them in for smaller ones when they grow too big for the tank. Am I overcrowding here, or are there any objectional choices? Any reccomendations?

Sorry for the long post, but I really appreciate your guys help. I'm really excited to get my new tank up and running!

 

[Torrean]

guess what. Most people on here are probably going to say the following. Slow down take a deep breath and look in here http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showforum=58 Read those topics and you'll get a long way. I set up a tank and let it run for 24 hours then dumped a bunch of fish in. Guess what. 5 died within 2 days, and 2 more died since. One during the ammonia spike,(you'll learn what that is soon), and another during the nitrite spike, (you'll learn about that soon too. On top of that my other fish's lifespan's have probably been shortened and they weren't very happy swimming around in nitrite soup. Well it's been a month or so and my tank is ok now but man it was not fun going through all that testing and the water changes. I suggest you do a fishless cycle. OH OH OH I almost forgot. Look on the web for something called BIO Spira it may save you a month or so of cycling.
Stocking your tank with fish that will outgrow it really isn't the best idea. Bala sharks need to be in groups if I recall and it will be stressfull on them if they get rehomed when they get bigger, that is if you can find an lfs that will take them. I suggest you either get a bigger tank or buy smaller fish. One more thing, don't trust your lfs(local fish store) guy. Chances are he'll tell you anything to get you to buy fish. Seems to me they want your fish to die so you come in and buy tons of chemicals to keep it from happening next time. When the fact is all you needed was a well-cycled tank. EDIT: You can read all about my idiocy if you like. Go to the bottom of the beginner's questions forum and where it says search type in "i think i may be a fool" look for a thread by that name started by me, and you'll see how arrogant and stupid I was when I started out. and you'll prevent all those people having to retype what they told me.

edit: kudos for coming in here and asking questions before you buy fish. I didn't and it cost me quite dearly. I could have saved probably $150 worth of chems and meds and other junk if I had come in here first. On top of that I probably would have started out with a 55 rather than a 29.

another edit: hmm i'm not sure about this one but I think that leaving a tank out dry can cause the sealant to crack. You should be carefull about that. It would suck if you came home one day and saw an empty tank with some dead fish in the bottom, Not to mention the flood in your house.

 

[Blue Lobster]

Why a BGK? They hide all the time.

Balas do better in 4 or more incriments. How about a Red tailed black, those can only be alone and do ok with rainbows and plec0s.

http/www.aquahobby.com/gallery/gbicolor.html

You could do 2 angels and a school of cardinal tetras, that's always colorful.....

 

[Torrean]

rainbow sharks AKA red-finned sharks, and I think they are called black sharks are very similair to red-tailed black sharks. Look into them too. Seems to be basically just color variations but I'm not sure. I think red-tails are the most aggressive.

 

[DeaDRingeR]

In my old tank, I had a Bala Shark that seemed very happy by itself so I figured I could go that route again. I also had a Red-Tailed/Rainbow Shark that loved to give all of my other fish a hard time so I wasn't planning on getting another one. The reason I want a BGK is beacause I think they are very unique looking fish; My LFS had a bunch of them and I fell in love with them right away.

Thanks for the tips Torrean, I'll look into the fishless cycling. I guess, for the sake of my fish, I'll just have to wait it out. I was hoping to get it all done with the fish and everything by Monday, since I start school on Tuesday, but it looks like it'll be a few weeks.

One more question though; lighting. Is it OK to leave the light on 24/7, or should I be turning it off periodically?

Thanks.

 

[Torrean]

You need to turn your light off at night. Fish like humans have a natural day night cycle and they need there lighting to follow that. Leave the light on for 8-10 hours a day. If you have plants you'll need to go a little farther into lighting. You should be able to find lot's about it in the plants and planted tanks forum. EDIT: Look into getting a timer.

BTW every fish is different, I have a pictus catfish that is supposed to be shy and hide when it's alone and should be in a group of three, well he is anything but shy. This does not necessarily mean that all pictus will react this way. You may have gotten lucky last time. I would do some more research before I go against common wisdom. The guy at the LFS said oh pictus are fine alone and sure three rainbow sharks would be great in that tank I got lucky on both counts so far. But I assume that when the rainbows get a bit bigger I am going to be stuck with a 55 gallon tank, or larger.

I understand that you want the fish you want but you may want to ask your LFS about rehoming it before you buy, it might not end the way you want it to. You may end up buying a bigger tank and no one wants that

BTW I haven't used it but I would seriously look at BIO spira. I've heard nothing but good things about it and it claims to be an instant cycle. So you may be able to set up your tank by monday, depending on shipping times, etc.

Good luck to you and I am VERY VERY glad I could help.

BTW i tend to edit a lot so you may want to look for EDIT: in my most recent posts. Like this one.

Edit: read the last post in the fishless cycle thread in begginers forum http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=89023

 

[DeaDRingeR]

I would love to get a bigger tank, but of course it comes down to a money issue.

Is Bio-Spira, or anything like it availible in stores? I think I'm gonna take another trip down to my LFS tommorow and ask one of the guys that I know knows his stuff and ask him what he would suggest I do to speed up the process. If I have to wait, then I have to wait, I want my fish to be as happy and healthy as possible so if that means waiting a few weeks then I don't have many options.

Again, thanks for the help Torrean, I appreciate it.

 

[Torrean]

no problem. BTW a good way to test your lfs employee is to ask him some basic wuestions. Such as

1. What are the parameters of the water in that tank (point to tank you might buy fish from) see if he knows. He should tell you PH at least

2. ask him how many rainbow sharks (6") can go in your tank

3. ask him if a common Pleco (20") would be a good idea. Then ask him why it's a good idea. The only correct answer he can give you is that he is planning on it dieing before it reaches full size.

4. find a sick fish that you recognize the symptoms of the disease and ask what is wrong with it and what caused it.

5. ask general questions about all the fish you're interested in, (take pen and paper) EX. adult size, food, water parameters, sexing, etc... EDIT: you should do this anyway before you buy your fish.

BTW I don't know where you can get BIO Spira but you're LFS might have it. I know you can find it online.

EDIT: I just re-read blue's post and I believe angels need 18" of water to be happy. not sure though
You are putting up your old 25 gallon correct?

Edit: well it's about 2 am here so i'm off to bed. I'll check this thread tommorrow, hopefully some more people will offer some advice to you. (pica)

 

[dwarfgourami]

About the light: any hardware store will sell you a cheap timer that turns the lights on and off at the right time every day, so your fish get an even day even when you're out late, or even away for the week-end.

About the fish itself: you need to check not just potential sizes but also levels of aggressiveness. I've never kept either BGK's or bala sharks, but from what I've read they may not go well with guppies. Also, whether your fish need to go in shoals, as mentioned above.

About cycling: I would definitely go for the fishless cycle. Even if it takes that little bit longer before you add your first fish, you can then choose much more freely what fish you can put in, as you're not restricted to the very hardiest ones (though you should still wait a few months with some of the most sensitive types). Basically, what you do with the fishless cycle is add pure household ammonia every day until first the ammonia levels spike, then the nitrites, and finally the nitrites disappear and you get high nitrates instead. So you need a test kit that tests for those- but you'll need that anyway; they're not expensive and quite easy to use. The links above will give you all the info you need. The advantage is, you are not putting any tester fish through a hard time; also, you don't get stuck with any fish you didn't want just because they are hardy.

Starting fishkeeping again, after a break of many years, I was very reluctant to do the fishless cycle because I thought the chemistry would be too hard for me (I used to sit at the back of the class and read comics...), but the people at the forum took me through it and I'm really glad I went for it. It also means I've got a better understanding of what's going on in my tank now.

 

[DeaDRingeR]

Well, I'm almost positive I'm going to go the fishless cycle route. I'm just about to head out to my LFS to see if they have any BIO-Spira, but if not, I'll probably end up coming home with some ammonia and a tester kit.

It seems pretty simple, just a 4-5 drops of ammonia per 10 gallons per day until the nitrites spike, then cut it down to 2-3 drops until the nitrites drop to 0. Finish it off with a big water change before adding the fish and you're good to go, correct?

One quick question though, if I don't have any existing good bacteria from an already established tank, what can I use? From what I've been reading, I can use a house plant, but how would I go about doing this? Do I take the whole plant and stick it in my tank, or can I just use the dirt?

 

[pica_nuttalli]

don't bother with the houseplant thing; they've done recent studies which indicate that its completely different sets of bacteria that start the terrestrial and aquatic nitrogen cycles. BIO-spira will increase your chances of introducing beneficial bacteria, but other than that you just need to get some to piggy-back into your tank. since live plants are great for maintaining water quality anyways... purchase some from your LFS that have been there a while and put them in with your ammonia.

don't count on being able to trade in your balas or BGK. balas mostly sell so nicely because they're small and cute; few people buy them with the intention to house a shoal in a 125g. the LFS know this and that's why you don't ever see large balas for sale. BGK grow faster than balas and will chow down on anything that can fit in their remarkably large mouths. BGK have the same issue of being an easy sell when small but difficult when large. large BGK are also difficult to house in the LFS since they are too peaceful and sensitive to water conditions to go with larger cichlids like oscars or mbuna, while being too predatory for small community fish. my recommendation? don't buy a fish you can't house or be absolutely certain that you can rehome later.

just get the one pleco. if i recall, rhino plecs are territorial and the foot print of a 25g is probably a bit small for sharing. especially if you ever get interested in other bottom dwelling fish like cories or dwarf cichlids. plecos are also FANTASTIC waste producers. i personally never recommend plecs for maintenance because they have such ineffiecient digestive systems; don't own a pleco except that you like plecos. if you just want a clean-up crew, get otos for algae or loaches/cory cats for scraps. no matter what you decide on, remember that you'll need to supplement their diet--every bottom dweller needs more than just whatever sits on the floor.

you really ought to chose between the Celebese Rainbows and Pleco. Celebese are actually brackish fish and like salt in their water. plecos, cory cats, loaches, otos will all suffer with the addition of salt. all other rainbows are pure freshwater and would go great with your rhino plec (although most would quickly grow too large for a 25g)

have you looked into any of the dwarf cichlids? there are any number of striking smaller varieties of cichlid that a pair/trio would thrive in your tank. if you like oddballs, i suggest you poke around in the oddball fish index and look at this gem of a topic.

let us know if you have any further questions!

 

[Torrean]

sorry haven't heard of the household plant thing before. Can you quote it? Go into your LFS and ask if you can have/borrow/buy some filter material or used gravel/ornaments. If they say no then try some live plants from an lfs, they should have good bacteria. Just watch out for snails. Look in the tank he is picking your new material from and see if there are dead/sick fish. Or any snails. If there are ask if you can pick the tank you get the stuff from.

 

[MissD]

plecos are also FANTASTIC waste producers. i personally never recommend plecs for maintenance because they have such ineffiecient digestive systems

Couldn't agree more...we have one in our bigger tank downstairs and the gravel literally needs to be cleaned every 2-3 days for the tank to look nice. There are trails of poop in there 8" long...

 

[Torrean]

What do you suggest to replace pleco's as algae eaters. This should be a pinned topic, What is a good algae eater. Since this is a big (misleading) selling point for pleco's.

Edit: oh otto's cories and loaches. can you elaborate?

 

[pica_nuttalli]

oto's will eat most forms of surface algae.
cories and loaches are just bottom scavengers and won't touch algae.
chinese algae/sucking loaches/gld algae eaters eaters mostly eat squishy bits like eyeballs.
siamese algae eaters are rare and like most loose algae.
american flag fish eat hair algae (cherry barbs are also good at this, i believe)
flying foxes and false siamese algae eaters will nibble on hair/bush algae.
hillstream loaches/butterfly plecs/hong kong plecos are good coldwater algae eaters.

ALL PLECOS REQUIRE SUPPLEMENTAL FEEDING TO SURVIVE. THEY NEED LOTS OF FOOD.
bristlenose plecos are pretty good on algae, as are rubbernoses.
common plecs are alright as algae eaters but get huge.
zebra plecos, royal panques and many other plecos will barely touch algae and require meaty foods (like flat-bodied fish).
ALL PLECOS REQUIRE SUPPLEMENTAL FEEDING TO SURVIVE. THEY NEED LOTS OF FOOD.

DO NOT BUY AN ALGAE EATER UNLESS YOU ALREADY HAVE ALGAE TO FEED HIM. IF THERE'S NOT ENOUGH ALGAE THAT YOU CAN SEE IT, THEN THERE'S NOT ENOUGH ALGAE TO BE EATEN.