New Tank Question

[garfieldanded]

k, so i was told this is a better place to post, I am sadly soooo computer illiterate.
Hi,
I recently purchased a new salt water tank, ~80 gallons. My hampster had just died (after 2.5 years), and my kitten seemed bored from not having anything interesting to watch. I felt a fish tank would be a nice distraction for him and me as well. I, unfortunately, did not know all the hassle that goes into salt water tanks. I have previously owned fresh water goldfish tanks, and no matter how negligent I was, they never died. I found out that the salt water tanks take a tremendous amount of work, but I am stubborn and chose to continue with the venture. I am currently cycling the tank with 5 damsels. The cycle is about three weeks in. I have been testing the ammonia and nitrite levels almost everyday, except for the occassional slip up here and there. My ammonia levels seemed to have peaked at ~1.0-1.25 ppm; the ammonia now seems to be between 0 and 0.25 ppm again. The nitrite levels have not started and are still at zero. Two of my fish seem not so happy. I know I should get a book on this and i plan too as soon as my finals week is over. Until then, I was hoping someone may be able to help me understand whats going on. Please don't yell at me for being stupid and using fish instead of the shrimp thing, I didn't know you could do that until it was too late. I do not want my fish to die. Even though they are starter fish, they all have names and I have grown attached to them. Am I missing something about the nitrite levels though, I had read that they were supposed to begin when the ammonia levels began to drop. If someone has some information that my help me I would greatly appreciate it. I am very nervous about my fish. I do not want to be responsible for fishy death. Thats not cool.

 

[@ombomb]

There's no need to cycle the tank with ANY sort of livestock as the live rock will take care of all of that for you. The fact that those Damsels are still alives shows what tough little fish they are. Unfortunately they're tough AND mean, so assuming they all make it through the cycle, adding any other fish is going to mean a real aggression problem.

Can you let us know how much live rock you have in the tank?

I'm quite surprised that you are still ammonia 3 weeks into the cycle, either there's not enough rock in there or it was out of the water too long. Are you SURE that there is no Nitrites? How old is the kit you are using?

 

[SkiFletch]

Agreed, gotta know how much liverock is in your tank and how long it was out of the water before you put it in. Also, can you have your tests verified by a LFS? Just for a sanity check

And btw,

 

[Navarre]

Hello and welcome to the marine forum of TFF.

Sadly you learned too late about fishless cycling, its the best way to do thing as you probbly now know but hey ho! Whats done is done now so lets see if we can turn this around and put you back on track.

The members here wish to know how much liverock you have filtering your tank. Im going to stick my neck out now and ask if you have any liverock at all? I may be wrong but i am wondering if you are using mechanical filtration with canister filters etc?

If you can give us the statistics of your tank i can assure you that you will get very fast responces to your dilemma.

This is what we need...

Filtration method.

Number of powerheads

Any liverock? and if so how much?

What type of sand are you using

Lighting (not a filtration issue but it will help with stocking questions later on)

What type of water you are using.. by this i mean are you using tap water or RO?

What amount of cleanup crew do you have, how many and what types.

IF you can answer these questions then we will be able to point you to asny posible solutions available to you.


Lastly...

As mentioned, these damsels in your system are cheap and sold as starter fish but the local shops will never tell you what problems they actually are. Damsels are extremly aggressive and one established they wil not usually tollerate any other fish n the tank with them even if the fish is many times the size of the damsel.
Sadly you might find that unless you are willing to part with these little devils you might never be able to add further livestock to your system.

 

[garfieldanded]

Hi
thanks so much for all the quick responses. as far as the damsels being little meanies I understand this, the fish store infomred me all about them and I was told they are starter fish, and they are actually the one fish they take back once you have cycled the tank. I don't mind sending them back, so long as they are alive. They also informed me that I didnt actually need live rock if I didn't want it, and that was not prompted by me by any means. As far as all the other information, my boyfriend is actually the one running the show on the tank. So he knows all of this information. I will get back to the forum in few hours when I see him. I am unfortunatly the dimwitted girlfriend in this case, but I posted on the forum because I am worried about my fish. On the other hand, I checked on them today and they are actually doing really great. They were hiding under this thing for and entire day, but once out of it they went bright blue again and seemed just as active and hungry as usual. What I am wondering now, is all of this information that I am getting as time goes by, why isnt the store providing any of it. I asked so many questions constantly and I am not told the same things as the forums. I even went to four different fish stores to find the most helpful staff with the healthiest looking fish. Oh and the tests are brand new so I dont think its an error in the accuracy of the tests.

 

[crazyelece]

You have to watch some of the info given at local fish stores. Some of them are better than others. Also you have to realise the hobby grows faster than some stores can keep up with it. There are those that still think undergravel filtration is the best option. Your best filtration will be with live rock. You can use other methods but they aren't the best option.

I'd say if your LFS will take the damsels back you may as well return them now. Get your live rock and start your cycle over with the live rock. In the long run this will be the best option for the health of your tank and its livestock.

 

[SkiFletch]

Totally agree, you'll struggle hellishly without LR

 

[garfieldanded]

For an 80 gallon tank how much live rock would I need. I actually really find it very ugly and don't like it, so I would prefer to put as little as possible. Of course I understand that is only an aesthtics issue so if its my only option I will add it. Also the people are the LFS told me not to get any "clean-up crew" yet. Wow if tanks were a test I would completely be failing.

 

[@ombomb]

Well if you're failing, the people at the fish shop who are giving you the advice are doing even worse...

You should be aiming for a MINIMUM of one pound of LR for each USG of water so for yours I'd aim for 100lbs / 45KG which isn't going to be cheap I'm afraid, you're looking at £350 - £450.

 

[Navarre]

Hmmm well im sorry to say that your lfs needs a good kicking

Ok the members here are giving you great advice so with a little effort all round im sure we can get you on track and enjoying your system even more.. And more importantly you wont be setting yourself up for a fall later on and returning to the shop to pay out more cash to put things right .. (sorry to say it but some shops work in this manner.. they will give out poor advice if the profit is in it ).

Liverock... you say it looks ugly but in my opinion and experience its absolutely essential for a healthy, vibrant and balanced tank. The liverock is important in so many way that these days you simply cannot do without it.

1. Its the best filter nature has made and therefore any manmade filter we use is only secondary to it. NO other system can remove nitrates from the water so effectively. (This is why nitrates in fresh water are removed by water changes.. we dont have to worry about this anywhere near as much).

2. It carries such a varied and diverse amount of life on it, you might not see it immediately but over the months ahead you will be amazed at what suddenly appears on the rock. All this extra life give stability to your little ecosystem.

3. Its a good platform to work from with corals etc. Corals naturally bond on liverock and this gives a good foundation for them to cement to over time should you venture into reefkeeping.

4. It helps keep PH stable (along with aragonite sand) and thus stops wildly fluctuating PH swings.

5. Your fish will need a territory to feel safe, when you visit your shop and see the fish in empty tanks, this is not natural and the fish wont be happy like this. They need rockwork to feel safe and keeping stress levels down. High stress means unhappy and weakened fish which are prone to diseases such as whitespot. You will need to aquascape with something, you might as well make the aquascaping work for you as well as make the fish feel at home.



Ok now the cleanup crew. This is probably one of the most overlooked part of marine keeping. They do extremly important work and will keep your tank clean and healthy. 1 cleanup crew per gallon of water might sound alot but i would recomend you get as many as you can afford and then each time you visit your shop, even if only to purchase some fish food, simply add another snail or hermit to the bill, this way you slowly increase the numbers you need without breaking the bank.


The comments above about shops being behind the times is very true. If you run a business and have just bought 30 canister filters and suddenly the marine hobby announces that liverock is far far better you are not going to be happy making a loss.. You wil sell these on and then perhaps catch up with the hobby at a later date. Another thing too is that if you can make £30 profit per cannister filter and only £6 profit per kg of liverock.... need i say more. Sadly there are rogue shops that need to be taught a lesson, dont take their advice and break from where they are trying to steer you, in the longterm you will save money and alot of stress.

 

[garfieldanded]

Thank you so much for the reply. I am going to go to the fish store very soon and grab some of the ugly rock. My boyfriend will be pretty happy though because he really likes the snails and crab things so i will pick thoseguys up too. So everyones suggestion seems to be buy live rock, and snails and crabs, and return my poor little fishes? Oh and will the cycle take the same amount of time with the live rock as with the fish. Oh and I've heard about using shrimp from the grocery store. Should the shirmp be used in conjucntion with the rock, or just the rock? You guys are really awesome with all the information.

 

[Siamese Fighter05]

Don't add any livestock to your tank until the rock has finished cycling in your tank as the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate level can be harmful to them. Get your snails and crabs when your tank has finished cycling. Do you have test kits?

Goodluck

 

[SkiFletch]

WEll, here's whats going to happen. First, bring the fish back with you when you go take the LR back. The upcoming toxins from the LR cycle are not going to be could for them and could even be lethal. Then, purchase your LR. When you do so, your LFS will bag it for you dry (IE they wont put water in the bags, weighs too much ). You're then going to take the rock home with you and put it in your tank. Spend some time setting it up how you like. Search around the forum for shots of people's tanks and look for some inspiration. You can do a lot with your rock in terms of aquascaping so feel free to play around a bit.

Then, keep your powerheads on, run your lights, and wait. When your LR is in the bags out of the water some of the life on it will begin dying. This is normal and necesssary. That life will then decompose into ammonia and slowly feed your cycle. You'll see a slight spike in ammonia usually from 0.25-1ppm and nearly simultaneously a similar spike in nitrite all depending on how much dies off on your rock. Usually in 1-2 weeks the ammonia and nitrite levels have reached 0 and your nitrate will be anywhere from 0-30+. If its high, do a water change (big) to bring it down, OR you can wait for the diatom stage. Diatoms are brown algaes that will start appearing about this time (1-2 weeks) that will consume the nitrates for grwoth. Once the diatoms are in play you can start adding your cleanup crew (so they have somethin to eat ).

Once the diatomsa re consumed and your CC established you can start adding fish . Remember to go slow so that you dont outpace your bio load and feed sparingly to start. That'll get you started for your first month. All the while you should be reading and asking questions cause we all still have lots to learn about this hobby

 

[garfieldanded]

K hi everyone. So, I spent some time looking at my tank and doing all the tests. The pH is at 8.3, and ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are all at zero. There is and has been brown algae for a while. So now I am wondering, if I missed something. because I had been ignoring the nitrate test for a while because I thought that it was going to take a long while to show up. My boyfriend also confessed that he hadnt been doing the tests for his week of the tank shift. Fish are so difficult. I have an 80 gallon tank that we probbly put $1200-1500 into and I am incompetent but my 10 dollar kitten is fine and thriving. Makes no sense. I have an 11 year old cat. I think I was in the 4th grade when I got him. He is alive and healthy. They should really warn people hahahaha.

 

[Navarre]

DOnt panic, this must seem a very steep learning curve for you but at the very least you now know you are on the right tracks and within the next month or so your tank will really start turning a corner and you will begin to reap the rewards for this extra bit of care and time you are taking now.