New Tank, newbie to FOWLR, many questions

[parkerdt]

In my younger days, I had many long-term, successful tropical aquaria scattered about my room. Care was relatively straightforward - keep filters clean, do water changes, don't overfeed, grow live plants, etc. After about 10 years of this, I went away to college, and gave away the tanks and fish.

Recently, I decided to start a saltwater tank. Purchased a "Marine Package" from my LFS - 26 gallon bow front, stand, Fluval 304, 15 lbs aggregate, 15lbs, Argonite (sp) live sand, 150w heater, test kit, thermometer, Instant Ocean, etc. Brough it home and set it up. All test normal after a few days; added 20 lbs Pohini (sp) cured Live Rock. All tests continued normal for another week. No Ammonia or Nitrites ever measured.

To start to cycle, added a Green Chromis. He ate well, was active, all seemed fine at 9pm tonight. Still no change in chemistry, except noting nitrates at about 20. Tonight, 11pm at 5 days, I lost the fish.

Noted yesterday that the pH was decreasing - was down to around 7.8, added recommended amount of Seachem Marine buffer., and did a 5-gallon water change. pH is currently at 8.3. Ammonia and nitrites have always tested 0.

Noted, also, that on his right side, Chromis had a white band with some redness, left side unaffected.

Tested my tap water (which comes out of a water softener using potassium for recharge, not sodium), and nitrates come out of the tap at 15. Temperature stays very constant at 78 degrees F.

Learned the hard way I do not enjoy losing fish. Considered briefly giving up, then remembered the $$$ spent so far.

So - what now? Is my soft water the problem? Was adjusting the pH a bad thing?
Something in my rock that is "bad voodoo"?

What do I do to get his tank to the place where it can safely house fish?

thanks,
Dave

 

[spanair]

Honestly speaking I wont cycle it from the start with fishes, it isin't right for the fishes or you when you loser them.

Anyways what I did was without fishes, add a daily amount of flakes or some type of food in the tank and let it rot, this should help to make the bacteria that take care of the waste. Every time I added that little bit more of food. I started to have a spike and then it went back down after a while. It was more or less now cycled. After this I added 2 damsels to help it mature more, and later on I added 2 clowns.

Now it's just a matter of waiting untill the tank is properly matured (about 1 month) to add more hard to keep fishes. So it has taken around 3 months to be able to add delicate fishes, if not more.

 

[hyrookin]

IMO,I would say that a green chromis is not a good choice to
cycle-instead,either blue or dominos are better,but be careful,
they can become very aggressive-so find out if your lfs will take them
back when you are done,and you should get at least three to cycle.
as far as p.h.,the buffer should stablize it.one more suggestion is to
get a couple of books like the new marine aquarium.
good luck.

 

[CRangelfishy21]

This is an old post, but another good thing to cycle with is a raw prawn, like the kind you buy at the grocery store, it smells but it works really well and besides, cycling with fish is cruel in my opinion

 

[parkerdt]

This is an old post, but another good thing to cycle with is a raw prawn, like the kind you buy at the grocery store, it smells but it works really well and besides, cycling with fish is cruel in my opinion

After the demise of my first Green Chromis, I cycled the tank manually with non-sudsing amonia. After about two weeks, all paramaters were back to within the "good" range, and I did a 50% water cycle, using the pre-packaged store-bought saltwater followed by another 50% water cycle one week later with this same water. As that stuff is too salty (1.028) I did use some bottled distilled water to get to 1.022.

It seems to have worked - the tank parameters are now very stable, and my new Green Chromis and Ocellaris Clown are beginning their third week. They are together with about 18 mixed blue and red legged hermits, 4 turbos, 2 smaller black snails and a peppermint shrimp, who has molted already. Still only 15 lbs of live rock, but another 20 lbs is curing in my basement set-up, with hermits and snails giving it a good once-over cleaning. Also doing a 20% water change in this tank every week as it is still occasionally spiking nitrites.

All seem happy and are eating well. The peppermint shrimp has taken to grabbing flakes out of my hand, and the citters get brine every third day in lieu of a regular Formula One feeding.

I'm getting some red spots on the glass, but the snails are taking care of that nicely, and some brownish algae on the sand, which the hermits seem to like. Ammonia shows 0, nitrites 0 and nitrates under 20ppm. I'm running a Fluval 304 with carbon in the bottom, Nitrate Sponge in the middle, and the Fluval bio media in the top.

I have lots of new round purple and green "berries" on the live rock I hope this is a good thing.

Dave

Thanks, all

 

[Navarre]

To be honest i really dont see the problem with his tank or the way he did his setup process. )
If you purchase enough quantity ot live rock that is fully cured and get it into your tank within a couple of hours then you can wait for a month of sundays for it to cycle because it already will be matured. Many people make the mistake of buying a large quantity ot really good quality live rock and then wait a week or more without putting anything in the tank and then sit and watch for spikes in their nitrite or maonnia etc. This hardly ever happens.. and the reason for this is because there is alrady a huge amount of denitrifying bacteria in the rock already. You are actually doing the rock more harm than good by waiting for so long because the bacteria in the rock will start to decrease in numbers and thus give the rock less ability to start dealing with waste products from fish.

As long as the live rock is good quality and its only out of the water for a few hours (I have had rock delivered fro reliable sources overnight with no problems) then you will not get a cycle.

I have 3 tanks, 2 of them run totally naturally with only live rock (my 130 gallon tank also uses mineral mud and caulerpa but used only live rock on intital setup) for filtration. On both occasions i placed high quality live rock in large quantities (about 1.5kg per gallon) into the tank and placed a fish in the very next day.

My 40 gallon tank started with 30kg live rock and the next day i had a maroon clown and Royal gramma in there. I monitored the tank for any spikes.. I had none.

My 130 gallon setup really did take the strain! I setup the tank with 50kg of very well matured live rock (far less than i really felt comfortable with to be honest) and a sump with mineral mud ready for caulerpa. This sump howver gave little in the way of nutrient extraction as it was not running properly yet.
IN this large tank i placed the following on day 2.
Blue throat trigger
Coral beauty
3 Anthias
6 line wrasse
Silty Wrasse

All of these went into the tank with no losses, no spike in ammonia, nitrites or nirates. My stocking leves are much higher now and i still run 0 across the board on my test kits.

Now im not avocating that anyone should fill their tank with water and rush out and put a fish in it like someone would with a goldfish for their children! But what i am trying to point out is that the reason we cycle tanks is to build up bacteria growth for the breakdown of nutrients from fish etc. This is essential for systems that dont use any form of natural filtration. After all these systems wont have bacteria and thus you WILL get spikes.
However, when you buy a filtration system that is already full of the bacteria you really need, then there is no need to wait for a week or more to see if any cycling will take palce (cos it wont) and in the meantime your bactria will be dropping off in number as there is no waste for them to feed on either.
I recomend that you make sure the live rock is excellant quality, add a fish the moment the water settles and becomes clearer. MOnitor your water of course so that if a spike should occur then something can be done about it.
Chromis are a very goo d starter fish, they are better tempered than damsels.

I will state however that i do no advocate that anyone should cycle a tank using fish! Tanks that run using mechanical means for bacteria build up etc, or tanks that need to be cycled before they mature (live rock systems dont need this as i have stated). then this should be cycled and monitored by methods that DONT mean dropping a fish in the tank. A dead prawn or even feeding the tank will help the tank cycle just as fast and the fish wont suffer during this.

Sorry if this seems controversial but with the additions of Live rock these days it is not as essential as for other types of systems.

As for the death of the fish in Parkerdt tank. I dont think it was down to the tank not fully cycled, as he mentioned, there was no spike in ammonia ot nitrites, mitrates were being produced so there was obviously a presence of bacteria there.
The low PH is far more of an indicatin to me than anything else. Most tanks operate at 8.2 or 8.3 if the fish was taken from this environment and placed in a tank which was 7.4 then its highly likely to be stressed or even burnt (might be the reason for the red marks on the side). Remember, 8.2 ph is 10x more acidic than 8.3
This means that a p.h. of 7.4 would be 80 times more acidic than a ph of 8.2! Quite a shock im sure you will agree. This is the likely reason for Chromis death IMO.


Just my views on the matter, hope this helps.

Navarre

 

[parkerdt]

Thanks, Navarre,

I new on posting to this board so see the next reply, please

 

[parkerdt]

Thanks, Navarre -

I agree with you - the pH change was a problem. Everyone esle seemed to want to point out how stupid I was by cycling with a fish, and they have a point....


But what I want to understand better is WHY my pH dropped to 7.8. From my reading it seems that using tap water was my first mistake; using tapwater out of the water softner was mistake #2, and softening my water with potassium rather than sodium was mistake #3. I've read that nitrates in soft water quickly lower pH, and it would seem that that is what happened to me. For the moment, this is under control using the pre-packaged water, and everything is thriving at almost 3 weeks in.

Ultimately, I would like to learn how to buffer my water to avoid this pH drop. I've been reluctant to use the Seachem Marine Buffer again, until I had a handle on what might have killed my first green chromis. And, with enough water changes, pH is less of a problem, for sure.

Green Chromis #2 and his Clownfish buddy (they really seem quite fond of each other) are doing well, ATM. My peppermint shrimp has molted, my hermits are seeking out larger shells - everything seems much better this time around. So, I guess I have to chalk it up to using tapwater in my initial mix.

Dave

 

[Navarre]

Good to hear that the tank seems a bit more stable now.
I cant really speak for the water fromthe tap as i dont use it.. When i did use it i know we have very soft water here and i had no probs with PH, it kept at 8.2. what type of sand are you using? this is usually a good buffer for your ph.

 

[parkerdt]

Good to hear that the tank seems a bit more stable now.
I cant really speak for the water fromthe tap as i dont use it.. When i did use it i know we have very soft water here and i had no probs with PH, it kept at 8.2. what type of sand are you using? this is usually a good buffer for your ph.

Argonite. 40 lbs in my 26 gallon. And I am no longer using water from the tap, either.

 

[Navarre]

OK so you now use RO water i guess?
If its good RO water then you merely need to run some air through it (RO is a poor carrier of oxygen), add the salt and this should increase the PH to the right level.
Now that you are running with this new water, what is the PH now?

 

[parkerdt]

OK so you now use RO water i guess?
If its good RO water then you merely need to run some air through it (RO is a poor carrier of oxygen), add the salt and this should increase the PH to the right level.
Now that you are running with this new water, what is the PH now?

I am using the prepared Nutri-Seawater until I can get my own RO setup installed.
It comes at an sg of 1.028, so I am cutting it with certified zero total dissolved solids distilled water from my friendly druggist. My sg is 1.023 (at least so says the plastic hygrometer) - pH seems to now be pretty stable around 8.1. I am doing 20% water changes every two weeks for now, and all seems pretty good.
0 ammonia and nitrites, and about 15ppm nitrates. I'm at 15 lbs of live rock now, and have about 20 lbs of new live rock in my downstairs tank about ready to be relocated - I hope 45 lbs of lr will be sufficient with 40 lbs of live sand in a 26 gallon.

Both of my Peppermint shrimp have now molted, my red-legged and blue-legged hermits are busily changing to bigger shells, there is nice new growth on the lr. Additional inhabitants are 4 turbo snails and 4 margurita snails, and a new Emerald crab.

Seems to be working, but you are right, I need to get my own RO setup as my seawater bill is getting about as high as my gasoline bill.

Dave

26 gallon bow-front
1 Green Chromis
1 Ocellaris Clown
1 Royal Gramma (to come)
1 Pyjama Cardinal (to come)
perhaps a lawnmower blenny
2 peppermint shrimp
many hermits, various snails
Emerald crab
40 lbs Aragonite sand
15 lbs Pohini live rock (soon to be more)

30 gal rectangular

curing live rock atm -
lots of hermits
1 Peppermint shrimp
various snails
Emerald crab
40 lbs Aragonite sand
40 lb live rock (mixed Pohini and Fiji)

 

[Navarre]

Sounds likes its stabilising nicely. well done

Glad i dont have to pay for my seawater I have 3 tanks which total 250 UK gallons

Just out of interest, you say that the seawater you have delivered has an SG of 1.028?
This seems a little high, natural seawater is usually around 1.024 - 1.026. Do they add anything to their water before sending to increase this SG or is it possible that your hydrometer is reading a little high?
I find that hydometers tend to read inaccuratly by about 0.002 in either direction. This makes me think that your seawater is closer to 1.026 (which is far better IMO). If this is the case then always try and remember that your hydro is reading 0.002 above what the water actually is. This will help you maintain a stable SG level in the tank. Remember, its not always the sg that will kill inverts and fish, its fluctuations in sg that cause most stress. Keeping the sg level at all times is far more important.

 

[parkerdt]

Sounds likes its stabilising nicely. well done

Glad i dont have to pay for my seawater I have 3 tanks which total 250 UK gallons

Just out of interest, you say that the seawater you have delivered has an SG of 1.028?
This seems a little high, natural seawater is usually around 1.024 - 1.026. Do they add anything to their water before sending to increase this SG or is it possible that your hydrometer is reading a little high?
I find that hydometers tend to read inaccuratly by about 0.002 in either direction. This makes me think that your seawater is closer to 1.026 (which is far better IMO). If this is the case then always try and remember that your hydro is reading 0.002 above what the water actually is. This will help you maintain a stable SG level in the tank. Remember, its not always the sg that will kill inverts and fish, its fluctuations in sg that cause most stress. Keeping the sg level at all times is far more important.

They document that this water comes at that sg - my hygrometer actually reads it as 1.027. Not sure why they do it that way, but is seems to be woking out well.

Dave

 

[parkerdt]

Interesting - my LFS told me it came at 1.028, the company website says 1.027,
which is what I measure it at. Here's a link:

http/www.naturesocean.com/nutri_seawater.htm

Dave