New Tank Emergency - Corys In Trouble

[puskas]

Dear TFF community,

I am new here and also new fish keeper.
I have an emergency with my new tank and need help. I am afraid I started with the wrong fish and too many. What shall I do?

It's a 70g Jewel Vision with the internal Bioflow 6 filter.
I set it up 2 weeks ago with plants 7-8 (Valisneria, Java fern, etc)

6 days ago I added the fish. I asked a guy in LFS and now I think we misunderstood each other (it's a foreign language issue, I had to talk in German so it's not his fault I think).

He advised me to add 10 red neon, 4 cory sterbai and 4 pitbull pleco to a totally new and uncycled tank.

The symptoms started on day 4 after the fish was added: ammonia up to 0.6 and the cory's started to have red gills and belly. nitrite was still 0 and pH aroung 8 which is also high. Probably overfeeding was part of the issue too.

I did 40% water change, vacuum, went back to LFS for advice.
They gave me bacteria in chilled canister, some leaves to lower PH and adviced me to stop feeding for a few days.

Now PH is good ~7 but ammonia is still at 0.2 and the corys still not look very good. They are active and look happy but gills and fins still not ok.

My question is:
will I be able to cycle the tank with so many fish inside - and keep fish alive?
how high will ammonia have to go for a proper cycle start and will these fish survive that?

will the cory recover after the cycling (fins, gills, etc)?

should I take some fish back to LFS? would another move not be another stress for corys that maybe worse than staying in the tank?

Thanks a lot for your help.

puskas

 

[basil1]

Dear TFF community,

I am new here and also new fish keeper.
I have an emergency with my new tank and need help. I am afraid I started with the wrong fish and too many. What shall I do?

It's a 70g Jewel Vision with the internal Bioflow 6 filter.
I set it up 2 weeks ago with plants 7-8 (Valisneria, Java fern, etc)

6 days ago I added the fish. I asked a guy in LFS and now I think we misunderstood each other (it's a foreign language issue, I had to talk in German so it's not his fault I think).

He advised me to add 10 red neon, 4 cory sterbai and 4 pitbull pleco to a totally new and uncycled tank.

The symptoms started on day 4 after the fish was added: ammonia up to 0.6 and the cory's started to have red gills and belly. nitrite was still 0 and pH aroung 8 which is also high. Probably overfeeding was part of the issue too.

I did 40% water change, vacuum, went back to LFS for advice.
They gave me bacteria in chilled canister, some leaves to lower PH and adviced me to stop feeding for a few days.

Now PH is good ~7 but ammonia is still at 0.2 and the corys still not look very good. They are active and look happy but gills and fins still not ok.

My question is:
will I be able to cycle the tank with so many fish inside - and keep fish alive?
how high will ammonia have to go for a proper cycle start and will these fish survive that?

will the cory recover after the cycling (fins, gills, etc)?

should I take some fish back to LFS? would another move not be another stress for corys that maybe worse than staying in the tank?

Thanks a lot for your help.

puskas

 

[basil1]

Dear TFF community,

I am new here and also new fish keeper.
I have an emergency with my new tank and need help. I am afraid I started with the wrong fish and too many. What shall I do?

It's a 70g Jewel Vision with the internal Bioflow 6 filter.
I set it up 2 weeks ago with plants 7-8 (Valisneria, Java fern, etc)

6 days ago I added the fish. I asked a guy in LFS and now I think we misunderstood each other (it's a foreign language issue, I had to talk in German so it's not his fault I think).

He advised me to add 10 red neon, 4 cory sterbai and 4 pitbull pleco to a totally new and uncycled tank.

The symptoms started on day 4 after the fish was added: ammonia up to 0.6 and the cory's started to have red gills and belly. nitrite was still 0 and pH aroung 8 which is also high. Probably overfeeding was part of the issue too.

I did 40% water change, vacuum, went back to LFS for advice.
They gave me bacteria in chilled canister, some leaves to lower PH and adviced me to stop feeding for a few days.

Now PH is good ~7 but ammonia is still at 0.2 and the corys still not look very good. They are active and look happy but gills and fins still not ok.

My question is:
will I be able to cycle the tank with so many fish inside - and keep fish alive?
how high will ammonia have to go for a proper cycle start and will these fish survive that?

will the cory recover after the cycling (fins, gills, etc)?

should I take some fish back to LFS? would another move not be another stress for corys that maybe worse than staying in the tank?

Thanks a lot for your help.

puskas

Hi, puskas, blimey you do have a few problems, I think everything that could go wrong has, firstly you haven't cycled ( fishless ) look up on the forum to find fishless cycle and start again, your fish have probably been burnt, as at the moment they are swimming in there own pee n poo, the good bacteria hasn't had chance to establish, this will take weeks, even then when it has fully established you should only introduce a few hardy fish to begin with, like danios (zebras) your local fish shop, or LFS, has given you very very bad advice, it sounds like he is in the wrong business, in my opinion I would take all fish back, I know you were concerned about them stressing out, but I don't think they stand a chance at the moment, start from scratch, and avoid that lfs like the plague, but most important never never take advice from any fish store without checking out here first,

 

[Assaye]

Dear TFF community,

I am new here and also new fish keeper.
I have an emergency with my new tank and need help. I am afraid I started with the wrong fish and too many. What shall I do?

It's a 70g Jewel Vision with the internal Bioflow 6 filter.
I set it up 2 weeks ago with plants 7-8 (Valisneria, Java fern, etc)

6 days ago I added the fish. I asked a guy in LFS and now I think we misunderstood each other (it's a foreign language issue, I had to talk in German so it's not his fault I think).

He advised me to add 10 red neon, 4 cory sterbai and 4 pitbull pleco to a totally new and uncycled tank.

The symptoms started on day 4 after the fish was added: ammonia up to 0.6 and the cory's started to have red gills and belly. nitrite was still 0 and pH aroung 8 which is also high. Probably overfeeding was part of the issue too.

I did 40% water change, vacuum, went back to LFS for advice.
They gave me bacteria in chilled canister, some leaves to lower PH and adviced me to stop feeding for a few days.

Now PH is good ~7 but ammonia is still at 0.2 and the corys still not look very good. They are active and look happy but gills and fins still not ok.

My question is:
will I be able to cycle the tank with so many fish inside - and keep fish alive?
how high will ammonia have to go for a proper cycle start and will these fish survive that?

will the cory recover after the cycling (fins, gills, etc)?

should I take some fish back to LFS? would another move not be another stress for corys that maybe worse than staying in the tank?

Thanks a lot for your help.

puskas

Ok, a few things to handle here. It's great that you've been testing the water and also doing water changes. This is what is needed for the fish - you need to keep testing the water and doing as many and as much water changes as needed to keep the ammonia even lower than it is now. You are aiming for zero and nothing more will do.

The red gills are probably from ammonia burns but gill tissue is normally very red anyway. The reason I am worried is because you can't normally see it on corys and you say the belly is red as well. This is a warning sign that something could be seriously wrong.

For now, forget your cycle - you need to focus on the fish. You *can* cycle a tank with so many fish but you've got your work cut out for water changes. Fish-in cycles are usually conducted with very few fish - maybe only 1-3 very small, hardy ones. You have 18 fish in a new tank and I think unless you can handle doing 2-3 water changes a day, you have to expect to lose some.

You could make things a little easier on yourself and the fish by taking back at least three of the plecs. 4 pitbull plecs is far too much for a small tank like yours, especially one that isn't cycled! That was bad advice from the shop. The pitbulls could be responsible for a lot of the ammonia so taking some out may be very good for the tank.

Alternatively you could consider taking all the fish back, even if they just go into a holding tank for a few weeks, and doing a fishless cycle. Both kinds of cycle will take the same amount of time but at least with a fishless cycle the fish don't get harmed and you don't need to do lots of water changes.

You ask how much ammonia is needed to cycle the tank - fortunately the answer is very little! A tank can actually cycle on the undetectable level of ammonia between zero and the lowest reading on the test kit. This won't even take longer than cycling with more ammonia. So you really can focus on keeping the fish healthy.

Lowering the pH with leaves instead of chemicals is good, but you still want to avoid the pH swinging too much. Changes of over 0.2 in a day can do serious damage. You were also lucky to get chilled bacteria supplement - it may work! Pity you got given these things after going back with problems, instead of being told how to properly cycle from the start. Incidentaly, you don't need to lower the pH. It's a myth that all fish want a pH of 7 and while som fish (like neons and corys) like a lower pH, it is rarely necessary to try to change the pH of the tank as this can make the tank unstable. It is better to stock fish that fit in with your water, rather than trying to make your water fit the fish you want.

The fish may recover but ammonia damage can easily shorten their lives.

Have a read here.

 

[puskas]

thanks a lot for the quick advice

in defence of the shop, I think it's an honest mistake
I live in Austria but speak little German

as I recall the situation, I think he understood that I cycled the tank without fish but I ment that I added something called Sera filter-start.

basil1 - I see you suggest to go to fishless cycle altogether. I realize that it would have been good but I don't think I can take all fish back to the shop. I might ask them though.

Assaye - thanks for the encouragement, I think the same way. I really want to keep the fish happy and healthy, this is my #1 goal.
my dilemma was: will I be able to finish cycling the tank with 18 of them inside without losing them. If this is a very thin hope than I would look for a new home for them right now (LFS or friends..)


Now what I will try to do is to ask them if they could take back some fish for 2-3 weeks while I stabilize the situation.
In the meantime I will try to keep ammo at 0.1-0.2 level and cycle the tank like that

PH is not a concern in itself as the fish were also kept in the same local water. It's a concern because of the ammonia...

If needed I wil change some water every day morning and evening. The issue is that I have a demanding job and 2 kids so it's not so easy.

Thanks again,
puskas

 

[fluttermoth]

In the meantime I will try to keep ammo at 0.1-0.2 level and cycle the tank like that

Just so you know, puskas; you need to keep the ammonia at zero. The tank will still cycle with an amount of ammonia that is too small to show up on a test kit. Any higher than zero and you run a serious risk or harming your fish, I'm afraid.

Are your kids old enough to help at all? Mine love holding the syphon tube, telling me when the bucket is getting full and measuring out the dechlorinater, things like that, plus it keeps them where you can see them while you're busy!

 

[puskas]

thanks fluttermoth,

I understand the objective is to keep ammonia at zero...
will be hard I guess with so many fish

anyway, I will try to do that
my kids are 5 and 7, love to help but sometimes it makes things more messy and slow

puskas

 

[lilfishie]

do you have a friend with a tank that you could have some mature filter media from at all, that would greatly help the cycle

 

[N0body Of The Goat]

As soon as ammonia or nitrite readings hit 0.25mg/l, you need to be thinking massive water changes, in the region of 80% or more.

Be wary of feeding too much, especially with so many fish in a "fish in" cycle, no more than an eye's worth per fish per day, perhaps even every other day given the circumstances.

 

[puskas]

just a quick update

tank is stable, ammonia is ~ 0-0.1 with 40% WC every other day
I cut down food, started to feed vegetables too and fish look quite happy

fins are growing back, gils still look a little reddish
I hope they will recover fully

Nitrite reading is still zero, and I start to wonder as fish are in tank for 2 weeks already
I guess the WC might slow down the bacteria development (I add water conditioner though)

Thanks a lot for your support,
puskas

 

[puskas]

one more week into cycle I still have all fish alive and the corys seem to recover nice
gills are not red any ore and fins are healing too

yesterady I saw nitrite peaking, it was around 0.8 so I did 50% WC yesterday and plan to do it again tonight.
Ammonia is below 0.05 so I think I am set from that side already.

I hope nitrite will come down in a week. Fish are in tank for 3 weeks now.

I have a major dilemma than:
should I keep the tank running stable longer with the fish I have to recover the fish from the cycling?
for how long?

or could I slowly add more fish after a week of stable water quality?

I want to take good care of my fish and feel guilty for what they are going through. At the same time I'd love to see more of them in my tank. It's quite large, 260l (70g) and just 18 small fish in it...

What do you think?

thanks,
Puskas

 

[the biffster]

i would not add any more
fish until your tanks as cycled fully
as loading it up again would
put a strain on the filter
keep an eye on the fish you have
until your filter is up and running
to its full poetical

 

[puskas]

hi biffster,

thanks for your comments

My question is how long should I wait with adding new fish AFTER the tank is stable (ammonia and nitrite consistently at trace level)

is 1 week waiting ok or shoudl I wait longer to allow time to recovery before ammonia could go up again due to having more fish

Thanks,
puskas

 

[the biffster]

hi biffster,

thanks for your comments

My question is how long should I wait with adding new fish AFTER the tank is stable (ammonia and nitrite consistently at trace level)

is 1 week waiting ok or shoudl I wait longer to allow time to recovery before ammonia could go up again due to having more fish

Thanks,
puskas

oh sorry once it is stable just add your fish slowly
i always find that . that is the best option
that way it save load on the filter build up gradually
i would say over a few weeks but that's only my opinion

 

[roadmaster]

hi biffster,

thanks for your comments

My question is how long should I wait with adding new fish AFTER the tank is stable (ammonia and nitrite consistently at trace level)

is 1 week waiting ok or shoudl I wait longer to allow time to recovery before ammonia could go up again due to having more fish

Thanks,
puskas

Once the tank has nitrAte Reading and ammonia and nitrites read zero (no trace levels) then you could add two or three small fish or one medium size fish per 10 days.
Adding too many at once,will result in repeat of ammonia and nitrites (both toxic over .25) Clean the filter material only in bucket of dechlorinated water or old tank water that you take out during water changes.
Once the tank's filter has been established,then once weekly water change of 40 to 50 percent from then on is all that is needed.


LDA25 Pitbull pleco is a favorite of mine and seldom gets but 2 inches long. Good find!