New Tank Crash! Why?

[kboy84]

I have a 55g which is filled with synthetic(resin) coral and rocks from an aquarium store. Right now, there are no fish, only 5 hermit crabs that have been cycling the tank for almost 2 months. Ammonia and nitrite tests were both 0.

Meanwhile, I had 4 fish in q. I gave them 3 formalin baths every 3 days changing out 100% of the water each time. After 3 weeks, I thought they looked ready (no visual parasites). So I needed to top off my main tank and do a water change for the first time to get a desired salinity. I put in about 5 gallons of saltwater (filtered) and 5 gallons of tap(w/ tetra conditioner).
I acclimated them to the 55 in a 5 gallon bucket with 1/4 water full. I dripped in water from the main tank for about an hour, but only till it got half full( I know, not enough ). The q tank water was at 36ppt, and the main tank was at 31. As soon as the fish were placed in, they looked right at home, already picking off algae from the rocks. So I watched for a while and there were no signs of stress at all. Surprisingly, 3 hours later, I came back to look and ALL of the fish breathing very rapidly, with one lying on the sand. I then put them back into the quarantine tank. Sadly, they all died either that night or the next day.
So now I'm clueless as to why my fish were shocked like that. It can't be physical things like temp or salinity because they werent initially panicking right? I'm thinking something related to the chemistry of the water.
I talked to a few very reliable sources, and some ideas were
1. I acclimated with too little water changes
2. rocks might be releasing toxic substances
3. synthetic corals may be toxic. (they had/still have a strong resin smell, even though I soaked them in fw for 3 days)
4. my big rocks are blocking the ug filter area, causing anaerobic areas.
5. using tap water

If you have any idea what's going on, please let me know!

Sorry this turned into a novel, but I wanted to make sure I didn't leave out any details, as each one may be the cause!

 

[Aquascaper]

It sounds like the increased bio-load from the fish has way exceeded the ability of the bacterial colony in the UGF to process the waste.

You have 'cycled' your tank with a minimal bio-load and have now increased that load faster than the bacteria can cope with, in effect starting the cycle all over again. One of two things will happen, either the existing bacteria will die off and the cycle will start from the begining or there will be a mini-spike and the bacteria will slowly catch up and multiply to deal with the waste. If the latter happens the tank should settle relativley quickly, if however the tank starts the cycle again the fish may be in danger.
Either way you will need to keep monitoring the levels constantly until the tank settles back down.

Looking ahead, you will need much more filtration for your tank as a UGF is not enough IMO, nor is it a viable filter. You should look at filling an external filter with live rock or better still adding live rock to the tank itself.

HTH

 

[SkiFletch]

Agreed, probably inadequate filtration. Do you have live rock in there or just the UGF? UGFs are 20 year old technology and are not suitable for saltwater tanks. Even a mechanical canister filter, which while not the most suitable filter available is better than a UGF. It was most likely nitrogenous toxins that killed your poor fish. Could be some other stuff, but let us know if you have an LR

 

[kboy84]

thanks for the replies.

I should've mentioned my filtration. I have 2 300gph powerheads with the UG. I also have a 280gph external hang on filter. A small skimmer will be added as soon as it comes in! So you guys are saying the amount of bacteria the hermits started wasnt enough for the fish to handle? Strange, because I had all 4 fish in my 10g q-tank.

As for the live rock, it is illegal to have live rock or living coral where I'm from

I was just thinking... my powerheads are causing a huge amount of current in the water. It almost seems as if the fish had trouble swimming and could not stay in one place. Keeping in mind most of my rockwork is relatively far from the surface, there's no rocks to redirect current and provide some calm areas. The interesting thing is that when I went back to check on them and noticed the heavy breathing, all 4 fish were swimming (struggling to stay in one place) in an area of about 6 inches near a big rock. I wonder if they just got exhausted
thanks again!

 

[SkiFletch]

Thats actually a little weak on the flowrate side of things, I have more flow than that in my 45g so I doubt that was your problem.

As for the clowns being fine in the 10g thats cause there was bacteria present in there to process their waste. Take a hypothetical for an example. You buy 2 clownfish which when they eat and crap make enough ammonia to raise levels in the water to 2ppm. Fill a dry plastic tank with seawater, put the clowns in there, and in 24 hours you have 2ppm of ammonia. No bacteria are present to process it. 24 hours later you'll have 4ppm, and then another 2ppm each day for about a week before the bacteria can grow to process it.

In your 10g tank, there were bacteria in there to process the waste the fish produce so your ammonia/nitrite were 0. In the new tank, hermits make almoast zero waste and so you were basically putting the clowns in a bacterially sterile tank. Ammonia prolly spiked, the clowns got internal organ burns and ammonia toxicity, and perished . A waste producing vertebrate is almoast required to maintain bacteria colonies in a tank, especially over a span of 2 months. A couple weeks, no big deal, but 2 months, and the bacteria will all die and process their dead cousins as waste till there are none left.

Since there are only hermits in the "main" tank, and LR is illegal where you live (where might that be btw? ), I would reccomend going through what the freshwater guys term a "fishless cycle". Add small amounts of ammonia to "fuel" the bacteria growth. Try to keep the ammonia level low at around 0.5ppm for a week or so, and then only add it sparingly and watch to make sure your nitrites dont creep up too high. Hermits should be able to survive low levels of ammonia and nitrite since they're pretty hardy guys. Remember with that much flowrate, any ammonia you add will show up in a test (if its enough) within about 30mins or so.

Also, either way I'd get rid of the UGF and switch to an aragonite sand bed instead of crushed coral and go with canister filters that you clean regularly. Much better and safer technology. There's no possible way you can even get a single piece of LR?

 

[kboy84]

Thats actually a little weak on the flowrate side of things, I have more flow than that in my 45g so I doubt that was your problem.

As for the clowns being fine in the 10g thats cause there was bacteria present in there to process their waste. Take a hypothetical for an example. You buy 2 clownfish which when they eat and crap make enough ammonia to raise levels in the water to 2ppm. Fill a dry plastic tank with seawater, put the clowns in there, and in 24 hours you have 2ppm of ammonia. No bacteria are present to process it. 24 hours later you'll have 4ppm, and then another 2ppm each day for about a week before the bacteria can grow to process it.

In your 10g tank, there were bacteria in there to process the waste the fish produce so your ammonia/nitrite were 0. In the new tank, hermits make almoast zero waste and so you were basically putting the clowns in a bacterially sterile tank. Ammonia prolly spiked, the clowns got internal organ burns and ammonia toxicity, and perished . A waste producing vertebrate is almoast required to maintain bacteria colonies in a tank, especially over a span of 2 months. A couple weeks, no big deal, but 2 months, and the bacteria will all die and process their dead cousins as waste till there are none left.

Since there are only hermits in the "main" tank, and LR is illegal where you live (where might that be btw? ), I would reccomend going through what the freshwater guys term a "fishless cycle". Add small amounts of ammonia to "fuel" the bacteria growth. Try to keep the ammonia level low at around 0.5ppm for a week or so, and then only add it sparingly and watch to make sure your nitrites dont creep up too high. Hermits should be able to survive low levels of ammonia and nitrite since they're pretty hardy guys. Remember with that much flowrate, any ammonia you add will show up in a test (if its enough) within about 30mins or so.

Also, either way I'd get rid of the UGF and switch to an aragonite sand bed instead of crushed coral and go with canister filters that you clean regularly. Much better and safer technology. There's no possible way you can even get a single piece of LR?

I'm not sure I understand your post. My 10g q-tank was constantly changed with all new water. But you said "In your 10g tank, there were bacteria in there to process the waste the fish produce so your ammonia/nitrite were 0." I never tested my q-tank water, only the main tank had 0 readings. I would think ammonia would build up faster in a bare qtank rather than in a 55 with crabs in it?

how does this explain why the fish were all huddled in one spot near the biggest rock with the least amount of current?



and no live rock at all..

o btw, they weren't clowns. 1 racoon butterfly, 2 milletseed bfs, and a white saddle goatfish...all under 3 inches.

 

[crazyelece]

IMO even with adequate filtration it would have been hard for any amount of bacteria to handle an increase of 4 fish at one time. The others are right, hermits produce little to no "cycling" waste and your tank would have little to no bacteria in it. Did you monitor the tank water while it was cycling? Did the ammonia ever spike? What value did it spike at? What value did the nitrites spike at? How long was the tank cycling?

The reason the quarantine had no problems was probably due to the 100% water changes. You removed all the wastes and reset the tank to 0 every time.

Also I think it was probably a combination of factors that killed the fish. Mainly the lack of biological filtration. But I suspect the tank was a little oxygen deprived without the addition of an overflow or skimmer. I would suspect the fake corals are alright as they are made for that purpose so they shouldn't be toxic. There could be an issue with the rocks though. Have you measured the Ph of the saltwater. If the rock and substrate aren't calcium based you could have issues with Ph. Liverock and aggronite help buffer the Ph and since you can't use live rock you may have issues.

I would start over with cycling the tank. Without live rock you are goin to need a frozen shrimp or the like. Throw it in and monitor the levels of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and Ph. When the ammonia spikes and lowers, the nitrites spike and lower, and the nitrates start to climb, keep an eye out for algea blooms. After some algea starts growing add the cleaning crew. Once the cleaning crew are gaining on the algea, ammonia and nitrite are zero, and nitrates are as low as possible you can start adding fish. IME one fish every month is the rate I would add the fish. If you need to add more than one (like a pair of clowns or multiples to handle aggresion) wait to add them until the end so its not so hard on the bacteria.

 

[SkiFletch]

You were constantly doing 100% water changes in the 10g? Wow, thats a little overkill, and as crazyelece said, would remove the wastes from the water every time you did it. Also remember that bacteria will live on just about any surface inside the aquarium as long as there's food for them to eat . Rocks, sand, glass, fake plants, crushed coral, etc. They prefer to live on porous materials like live rock or filter flosses, but they will grow just about anywhere you let them.

 

[Lynden]

1 racoon butterfly, 2 milletseed bfs, and a white saddle goatfish

Uh, excuse my saying this, but, are you nuts?
It would be wise to try easier fishes than to buy 4 "difficult" animals. Also, Butterfly fishes require plenty of live rock unless you are prepared to feed them like 3-5 times a day. And all fishes listed are not reef safe.

I am suprised to hear you say that they survived that long in a ten gallon with so many formalin baths and water changes. The aformentioned fish may not be happy in a 55 gallon, let alone a ten.

You must address the biological isues, or the tank will not otherwise be viable. Where do you live that does not allow live rock? This material is almost essential for any saltwater system.

Cycle your tank using the methods crazyelece suggested. Do not buy fishes until the tank is cycled, and keep them small and easy to keep.

Keep it slow: beauty takes patience, but disaster comes quickly.
Continue taking advice from the good lads on Fish Forums, and above all, be patient.
Good luck with the future stock

-Lynden

 

[kboy84]

ok, got a bunch of good advice. thanks.
first off, I live in Hawaii and its illegal to have any rock with living things on it. Don't ask me why, that's just how it is.

Ski, I changed out all 10g to make sure no parasitic eggs were left in the water, which would make my formalin bath pointless. It is my understanding that eggs are resistant to treatment, which explains why multiple treatments are required to get them when they hatch out. Are there any alternatives to changing out all the water and still using baths?

crazvyelece, I think you're right. My nitrate test wasn't even close to 10. So, the tank was cycling, just not close to enough !!. I guess I paid so much attention to the treatment and qtank that I sort of neglected the main tank. yikes. However, theres still one thing unclear to me. What is the difference between dropping 4 fish in a 10g with new water vs. dropping the 4 fish in 50 gallons of water that was running for 2 months??? It seems as if there was a significant difference (panic in 3 hours). If the main tank is not cycled like many of you predict, I don't see how it's different than a qtank thats not cycled...???
thanks for all your helpful suggestions. I really appreciate it. I'm finding out this is a challenging hobby, but I'm sure many of you have your beginner stories!

btw...I'm using stability to speed up the process. Any good/bad things to say about it?

 

[SkiFletch]

Are you sure you're not confusing the fact that its illegal to remove LR from the hawian reefs with laws against ALL LR? Cause if its illegal to have any LR then that's gotta be some kinda state law

So let me get this sequence of events straight here. You bought a 10g tank for QT and a 50g for display. You put a UGF with crushed coral, and hermit crabs in the display and then let it sit for 2 months. Were any chemicals monitored on the display tank while it sat? temp, salinity, ph, etc?

Then, for your 10g QT, how long has it had water in it? Any filtration? Any powerheads? Any chemicals tested? any substrate? other than the mentioned deceased participants, was anything else ever living in the 10g? How often and what volume if any water changes were performed? was anything other than formalin dosed in the 10g?

As for the "stability" I'll assume that its a cycling product? It's probably not a bad thing for your tank, but it is a waste of money. I've yet only seen one "cycling" product that was even possibly worth it. The name escapes me now, but it was kept refrigerated from production to shipping and stored in freezers at petstores. Refrigeration/freezing is the only way bacteria can survive that long in a sealed container with food and no air. The off the shelf cycling products are really just a tube with bacteria that were cultrued and have long since died off for lack of O2 or food. Its unrealistic to expect them to work.

What are your current chemical levels in the display tank?

 

[kboy84]

Are you sure you're not confusing the fact that its illegal to remove LR from the hawian reefs with laws against ALL LR? Cause if its illegal to have any LR then that's gotta be some kinda state law

So let me get this sequence of events straight here. You bought a 10g tank for QT and a 50g for display. You put a UGF with crushed coral, and hermit crabs in the display and then let it sit for 2 months. Were any chemicals monitored on the display tank while it sat? temp, salinity, ph, etc?

Then, for your 10g QT, how long has it had water in it? Any filtration? Any powerheads? Any chemicals tested? any substrate? other than the mentioned deceased participants, was anything else ever living in the 10g? How often and what volume if any water changes were performed? was anything other than formalin dosed in the 10g?

As for the "stability" I'll assume that its a cycling product? It's probably not a bad thing for your tank, but it is a waste of money. I've yet only seen one "cycling" product that was even possibly worth it. The name escapes me now, but it was kept refrigerated from production to shipping and stored in freezers at petstores. Refrigeration/freezing is the only way bacteria can survive that long in a sealed container with food and no air. The off the shelf cycling products are really just a tube with bacteria that were cultrued and have long since died off for lack of O2 or food. Its unrealistic to expect them to work.

What are your current chemical levels in the display tank?

Yup, you got the sequence right. The qtank was changed 100% on treatment days. noting was monitored in it other than salinity, which was around 34-36. I only have a sponge filter for that, but it seems to keep them happy in there. Only formalin baths in a seperate tank, not the 10g.

I'm not sure on the live rock law, but theres no place that sells it!

 

[crazyelece]

I think it took awhile for the lack of filtration to get them. They kept getting fresh new water in the qt tank but not the display. I think the qt hurt them and the display finished them off. As far as the cycling products there are two types that work well. One is called bio-spira and is the refrigerated type like mentioned before. This is living bacteria that you add in to boost up the bacteria count. Works very well but if you don't balance the amount you put in with the added load you may be wasting your money as the bacteria may starve and die off due to lack of food. The other type is a product called cycle and is a liquid in a bottle. It is not live bacteria, but the food that the bacteria consume. If you add it before adding fish it will cause the bacteria currently in the tank filters to reproduce and multiply. I have used both products with success in emergency situations and IMO they work if you are willing to spend the money.

 

[SkiFletch]

Yeah, biospira, thats it . I agree with what crazyelece said. The fish probably experienced some minor chemical burns during treatment in the 10g and were finished when they went through the stress of entrance into the 50g.

Moving forward, properly cycle the 50g with either biospira or naturally with some dead food or pure ammonia, and then add one or two small fish that you'll want to get things started. You should also cycle your 10g qt tank and maybe put some chaeto and a small resident fish (clown say) to keep its bacteria alive. New fish should be QT'd for 2-3 weeks but not treated. Just observed. If no diseases show on them, send em over to the 50g

 

[Lynden]

In the freshwater forum, people called me an idiot for using Cycle