New Tank/Beginner Q's and Problems

[Avaston]

Ok...where to start.

I purchased a 29gal 4 days ago now. I Have learned so much since my purchase by vast reading at this forum. How I wish I had known atleast 10% of what I know now..... then. Here are the details and questions.

I purchased the tank, plastic plants, and some live plant bulbs (currently 5 in the tank) along with the filter , heater, and all other necessary things including 2 aerating stones which I placed at oposite sides of the tank. I have mistakenly populated the tank with 2 female betas (which I was told would be ok, learning isn't suggested since then), 6 Neon Tetras, 2 Gorami, and 5 Shrimp. I have lost 4 tetras and 1 beta thus far and have not difinitively narrowed down which of the following is the biggest cause (other than lack of cycling time) and what do I do.

My current water test results as of 1/2 hour ago are (as per test strips):

Nitrite = 20ppm
Nitrate = 0
Ammonia = .25 - .5
GH = 300ppm Well, this one reads Very Hard (highest reading)
Kh = 300ppm This one also reads the max of the tester
PH = 8.4 Also the highest reading of my tester

I am unsure what to do to salvage my remaining fish. I have added Stress Zyme which I am sure you know of, and 1 teaspoon of PH Down to try to bring down the level of KH and PH. I am pretty sure (atleast now I am) that adding chemicals at this stage of the cycling is bad news. I decided to stop everything and post here to see what the next best step is before I take too many steps and screw something up, like stopping any bacteria from forming. Also, the tank is crystal clear and I am going to do a 20% water change in the morning to help keep the ammonia levels to a minimum. Other than that, I don't know what to do to help my fish? Much appreciation to someone that can help. Also I have a couple questions from other posts that I have read.

When changing the water and vacuuming the gravel, how do I avoid removing any bacteria from the gravel in the vacuuming process (if it's possible to remove bacteria at all in the process).

Also, when changing the filter cartridge in the filter which I don't remember the name of the one I have , but it is an equivalent of the Penguin BIO-Wheel 170 Power Filter except it does not have the Bio-Wheel. I have read things that confuse me to believe that changing the cartridge every 3-4 weeks is good and bad. I have read that it gets rid of the good bacteria contained in the filter altogether? And I have also read that the good bacteria is contained in the filter itself and changing the cartridge does not get rid of any good bacteria, thus starting some of the cycling process over again. Since recycling the tank every 30 days is not the case, can someone please clarify this for me and if any steps are needed immediately after I change my filter cartridge.

Any help will be greatly appreciated and THANK YOU to all of you that contribute to all of these posts which really are a huge help to so many!! I have personally learned so much and look forward to owning my aquarium and purchasing more in the future when I am a more seasoned aquarium owner.

Ed

 

[rvm]

Your tank is cycling, and by the sounds of it, that is what has killed your fish. I would suggest changing water every day until you get 0 ammonia and nitrite. The Ph reading isn't too bad, I know that some of the fish you have prefer acidic water, but I have tetras in Ph of over 8 with no issues. I think maybe someone else could help you better with this problem.
As for the bacteria, I wouldn't worry about vacuuming the gravel as most of the beneficial bacteria will colonise the media in your filter. For this reason, I wouldn't change the cartridge that often at all. Rinse it out in tank water NOT tap water every time (I do it every other time) you do a water change and it'll last for ages. I would only change it when it is practically falling apart, and even then don't change all the media at once. do it in stages!! I don't know about your specific filter, but I use cannister filters on all my tanks and use the ceramic rings for bio-media and filter floss as water polisher. I change the filter floss every couple of months as it gets clogged quite easily, but Ive never changed the bio-media, and this has been running for well over 6 months now since I changed to a cannisters with no issues!!!

 

[Dragonslair]

Hi Avaston
The problem you describe is not an uncommon one and like many before you and no doubt many after you will go through them same trails and tribulations of being a newbie. The main difference between you and some of them is that you bothered to do some research. May I first of all draw your attention to the pinned topic in this section entitled "how to avoid new tank syndrome". It is never too late to start cycling your tank, especially when it's new. As to your fish, unfortunately that is another story. Your water parameters are quite a way out and some quite dangerously high. IMO don't use Ph adjusters, they only make things worse. The fish you have will have adjusted themselves to the water used by your lfs and adjusting the Ph, Dh and any other H's will be detrimental to them. (Please note this information is intented solely for the use by avaston and any other fishkeeper use this info at their own risk) I need to add that in because there will be fishkeepers out there that will disagree with me on that point as they will be specialist breeders and as such Ph, Dh and the rest, will matter, but for our purposes it does not.
When you do the water changes, unless the bottom of the tank is very dirty and it shouldn't be in a new tank, take the water from about midway. A 25% change weekly should be sufficient, and again initially your cartridge should not need to be changed for a good 6 weeks. If it does, then you are overfeeding your fish and you must reduce this to a minimum. If you feed your fish 3 times a week, they still will not starve.

 

[Avaston]

It is never too late to start cycling your tank

Isn't that what I am doing now? Isn't this an inevitable stage at this point? Also, don't I NEED this ammonia to get my tank cycled? Won't bringing the ammonia levels down to 0 hinder the cycling process? I know that I can't let the ammonia get to a crazy high level which is why I was doing the water change, but do I really want the level at 0? And what level (if any) is going to be what I want to watch for and maintain it under as to give my fish the best chance possible if a total 0 isn't what I want?

I really don't want to be too much of a N00B here, but I really do want to understand this cycling process as to never make this mistake again. I know that from now on, with new tanks in the future, I will do fishless cycling, but until then, I want to understand what I am going through now.

Also, when I set the tank up, I used tap water and treated it with a dechlorinator named AquaSafe. Should I use store purchased bottled water when changing my water on a weekly or twice weekly basis (depending on my ammonia reading)? I keep thinking of the hardness of my aquarium water and thinking that maybe it can be helped by using distilled water when doing my water changes and not the crummy water that I used initially. It makes sense to me, but so did adding fish to the new tank

Lastly, I am still kinda confused about the filter cartridge changing. I have 1 saying that

I wouldn't change the cartridge that often at all. Rinse it out in tank water NOT tap water every time (I do it every other time) you do a water change and it'll last for ages. I would only change it when it is practically falling apart,

and I have another saying

initially your cartridge should not need to be changed for a good 6 weeks.

Should I change the cartridge every 6 weeks or just rinse it out in the old water from the change and put it back in? Will changing the cartridge every 6 weeks be damaging to the established cycle when it completes, or change how the bacteria deals with the ammonia that it is running through the filter since it is contained in the gravel as well? I really hate being so dumb about all of this!

BTW, I did change the water and I am not going to add ANY more chemicals to the tank water except for the "bacteria in a bottle" that I bought to help with the cycling process. I am going to purchase a good water testing kit tomorrow morning and get rid of the test strips as I have read that they are not reliable in many cases. I am also going to return the PH Upper and Downer that I bought. Seems the safest way to not use them.

Thanks Again for all your help

Ed

 

[tstenback]

Yes you are in a cycle. Drogonslair was just saying that the ammonia and nitrite levels have to get to zero for this to be a success. This is what the nitrogen cycle is all about. As for the filter, both Dragonslair and rvm are correct in what they are saying but they are both speaking about different times in the tank. rvm stating that the filter should be rinsed and only replaced when required is what wwe do after the cycle is over and we are in the general maintenance part of the hobby. Dragonslair was stating that for the initial 6 weeks it would be best not to disrupt the filter at all as this is where a large part of the useful bacteria resides. Also to further complicate this different filters have different requirements for specific maintenance.

The cycle starts when you add the fish to the tank. They create ammonia which is eaten by bacteria in the tank and converted to nitrites. Initially there are not enough of these bacteria to eat all of the ammonia so we get an ammonia spike. It will take a week or longer for these bacteria to build up to the level required to eat all the ammonia that yur fish are producing. As these bacteria consume the ammonia they will cause an increase in nitrites(nitrite spike) this is also toxic to your fish but less so than ammonia. There are bacteria in the tank that eat the nitrites and produce nitrates but just like the other bacteria there are not enough of them to consume all the nitrites being produced. These guys are slower growing and reproducing than the other bacteria so your nitrite spike will last longer than your ammonia spike. Ususally at least double the time. These bacteria will eventually consume allthe nitrites and leave just nitrates that we can detect in the tank. At this point you have enough of bacteria 1 to consume all the ammonia being produced almost instantaneously(so we get a reading of zero when we test) we have enough of bacteria 2 to consume all the nitrites being produced almost instantaneously(so we get a reading of zero when we test) and all we can get is a measurement of nitrates. You are now cycled.

This process can happen again if the bacteria get killed off or if you add too many fish in a short period of time. The only way to remove the nitrates without adding chemicals to the process is to do weekly water changes.

For your situation now....water changes big time every day. You have fish that need your help and all you can do for them now is keep their environment as non toxic as possible. Yes this will slow down the cycling process but it will save your fish. I would recommend that you keep the ammonia level below 1 ppm as well as the nitrite level. However with the nitrite level over 20 right now then that may be impossible but you must get it as low as you can. Nitrite at this level is very toxic to your fish and is IMO what has killed the others. So big time water changes for now, say 50% today and agian tomorrow then watch the levels and change the amount required to keep them low. Long winded i know but you did say you wanted to understand the cycle. good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Dragonslair]

Thanks Terry
Couldn't have explained it better myself!

 

[Avaston]

Thank you for the explanation. I understood alot of what you explained about the cycle, but that did define things better for me. It also gives me a relative time frame which is very comforting to know that this won't last as long as I thought. Not to mention, now I know what killed my fish (probably).

1 remaining question. Should I use the distilled store bought water when changing? I just bought 20 gallons of it, thinking I would need it for the water change but want to make sure it will be ok. Still thinking that it will affect the GH, but not totally sure about that one. If not, then I guess I will have to start drinking more water

BTW, since I did the water change yesterday, the fish seem to be doing a little better. They don't seem to be so stressed. I did lose 1 more tetra, but that was just before my change. Going to turn myself in if this doesn't stop

Thanks again and I will put off the water change today till I hear about the water.

Ed

 

[Aquascaper]

Just a little point i hope helps you Avaston:

Also, don't I NEED this ammonia to get my tank cycled? Won't bringing the ammonia levels down to 0 hinder the cycling process? I know that I can't let the ammonia get to a crazy high level which is why I was doing the water change, but do I really want the level at 0? And what level (if any) is going to be what I want to watch for and maintain it under as to give my fish the best chance possible if a total 0 isn't what I want?

You can never have absolute zero Ammonia or Nitrite levels in a tank as your fish are producing Ammonia constantly and therefore this will be converted to Nitrite and so on. When a figure of zero is mentioned it is in relation to your testing kits values, not the actual level. There will always be Ammonia for your bacteria to munch on even if your tests show a zero result (many testing kits can't detect below 0.25ppm anyway)
Ideally your Ammonia levels should not get above 0.25ppm (ie. a zero value) and Nitrites above 0.5ppm (this is what i aim for and when the levels creep up that's when i do a water change).

Good luck with your cycle and i hope you don't have too many casualties

 

[Avaston]

Very helpful. I didn't know that many kits don't detect below X factor. Guess I will look for a kit that will detect lower that .25 when I get my new water tester tomorrow (didn't have time today).

How about the water change with distilled? Will this be a problem or will it help? Still waiting to do a change depending on the answer.

Thanks

Ed

 

[njnauticalnut]

I have heard varying opinions on using distilled or bottled water. The main issue is that each bottle of water can have a different PH level which is not good for the fish and using a chemical to change PH can also be detrimental.

Is there any way that you can soften your tap water? The town where I used to live had very hard water with a lot if iron so we "had" to put in a water softening system. I wonder if there is something you could get to attach to your faucet. I know that there are purifiers like PUR or Brita (which are not very expensive and in the long run would be much less expensive than buying gallons of purified water), however I do not know if they soften water. I am sure the info on them states what it does.

BTW, have you actually tested you tap water for hardness?

Hopefully someone can else can provide more insight into this for you.

Good luck.

 

[Avaston]

I have tested my tap water for hardness and it reads very hard. I can get an unlimited amount of soft water that is run through a water softening system, but that seems a bit inconvenient since it is not close by. I think I may go with the water softening "pillow" at the LFS, when my cycle is complete. I went to the LFS today and he recommended Reverse Osmosis water for water changes. Never distilled water and maybe using spring water is ok, but no distilled (guess I better get drinking ) I have an unlimited supply of RO water available to me as well. I think I will just stick with my tap water. It will ultimately be the most convenient and I can't believe that my tap water is so much worse than anyone elses in the world. My water and a softening pillow I think will do the job. I will wait til the cycle completes to worry about all of that.

Thanks for all the very helpful input. I think everything is going to be fine as the cycle takes it course.