New Person Same Old Questions

[biggreeny]

hey
im new to fish keeping (and i mean realy new)
i woke up this morning and decided this is what i want to do.
but!!!!
i had a few questions:
1: how small is too small? i dont live in a big house and i have young children so a big tank is not advisable
2: salt or fresh water? what are the differences?: is fresh water easer to maintain
3: tank setup? on a budget but i want somthing thats going to work and look nice
4: the big question: FISH variety what fish are best to start with. (i dont want goldfish or those sad looking fighting fish you can buy at pet stores)
and i forgot to mention
dont feel as if you have to answer all my questions in one go!
experiance/ opinions on any of these would be helpfull.

 

[JenCliBee]

Firstly Hi & Welcome 2 TFF

rite 2 the questions

1 size all depends on wot fish u want and how many u want 10gallon is nice starter size
2 salt as in usually marine setups/freshwater as in non salt water fish(dunno how 2 explain that better lol)
3 again totally up 2 u gravel or sand usually the main 2 options either pretty affordable speciallt for smaller tanks
4i like platies as a starter fish nice 2 look at pretty hardy and very accesable u will find them in all LFS

but always remember a tank needs cycling this mean mimicingthe natural process of ammonia breakdown and this is usally done without fish and a bottle of ammonia. take a look at this link it should explain all ur need 2 know about fishless cycling click HERE


hope that helps and anymore questions just sk theres always some 1 round 2 help u out


jen

 

[biggreeny]

i know this is goin to be one of the most dumbest questions?
but i need to ask because of my time/money restraints.
after reading up on cycling.
is it pointless buying fish at the same time you buy a tank set up???

 

[backtotropical]

Its not adviseable to buy fish at the same time as the tank. If you read the fishless cycling thread (theres a link in my signature below), you will see why.

Basically, the filter on the tank is not to remove debris like fish waste from the tank. Instead its main function is to de-toxify the ammonia in the water which is a result of the fish waste amongst other things (ammonia is deadly for fish even in small concentrations) and it does so by housing 2 types of beneficial bacteria.

The filter de-toxifies the ammonia by colonising a type of bacteria which turn ammonia into nitrite (nitrite is also deadly for fish but a step in the right direction). There is then another type of bacteria which turn the toxic nitrite into relatively harmless nitrate. This process is known as the 'Nitrogen Cycle'.

You can see why having these bacteria properly cultured in your filter is so important? It is the difference between having deadly ammonia in the water or harmless nitrate. Nitrate can be harmful in high concentration, so is usually removed not by filter bacteria, but by replacing some of the tank water with fresh water every so often. The process of colonising the bacteria in the filter is known as 'Cycling'.

There are 2 main ways to 'cycle' your filter

1. Using a bottle of ammonia (with no fish in the tank)

2. Adding fish to the tank to produce the ammonia

Fishless cycling is the recommended option because by using fish to 'cycle' the filter, the fish are exposed to ammonia and nitrite whilst the bacteria are growing (aquarium filters don't come ready with bacteria included). Exposing the fish to this will at best damage their long-term health, but often kills them.

Here is a diagram which may help you understand.

Fishless cycling usually takes 3 - 6 weeks, and you can't have fish in the tank during that time, but you reap the rewards of your patience after that time when you can keep fish with some success, and they don't all die on you.

It is really essential that you understand the 'Nitrogen Cycle' before attempting to keep fish fish, if you want to have any success in the hobby. This process is crucial in keeping fish alive in aquariums.

I hope this helps you, and if you have any more questions, just ask.

BTT

 

[Miss Wiggle]

hi there and welcome to the forum.

you've already done the single most important thing in fishkeeping..... research before buying fish.... so you are well on the way to having a sucessful happy experience fishkeeping.

Best thing you can do to start off with is read read read, the links in my sig 'step by step guide to setting up an aquarium' 'whats cycling' and 'fishless cycling' should be your starting point and will answer some of your questions, have a read through them and post back with any more questions you have and we can get you on the right path.

You say space is a problem, I can certainly appreciate that..... i live in a 1 bedroom back to back terrace, I probably have the least space possible, found room for a 4foot tank though. Have you got a place in mind to put the tank, how big is the space that you have? Sometimes things like corner tanks can help you get a bit more tank into a small space, likewise sometimes you can get extra tall tanks and things like that. Now with funny shaped tanks there are some stocking considerations like if you have a tank that's got a floor plan of 2 square foot but it's 4 foot tall, you couldn't have the same amount of fish in there as you could have if you turned the tank on it's side so it was 4 foot long and 2 foot wide and high. So if you let us know what space you have we can help pick out the best sized tank for you.

OK, there's basically two factors in types of set up's, temperature and salt, you can have any combination of the two

So you can have coldwater with no salt - this is a common coldwater set up suitable for fish like goldfish
or warm water with no salt - this is what's commonly referred to as tropical and what i would recommend you choose
coldwater with salt - this is not a common set up at all, it would be what you'd do if you wanted to set up something like a little rockpool tank for the sealife we get on the coast of the UK
warm water with salt - this is commonly referred to as marine, if you wanted to go with a saltwater set up that's what i'd advise you choose.

However is space and money are a consideration I would not recommend saltwater, it can be pretty complicated and expensive and you need a lot more equipment. There's also a lot more to learn. While there's no reason not to go straight in with saltwater if that's what you really want, it's gonna require a whole lot more research before you set it up. It also needs a lot of time and patience. Most people start off with a tropical set up, and then after they've got a few years of experience they may choose to start keeping marines as well.

once you've decided what size tank you want that will then influence what fish you can keep, the most important thing to remember is that fish in the shop are usually juveniles which means they are often small but will get very very large. Particularly with some of the commonly sold catfish they are sold at 2/3" long and they will get to 2/3 foot long..... so you need to be careful and make sure you research fish before you buy them, or you can end up with a monster which will quickly outgrow your tank, these monster fish are often difficult to re-home cos there's a lot more of them sold than there are people who have big enough tanks for them. So the really important thing is to research first.

Good thing being when you've set up the tank and you are cycling it (the links in my sig explain all this) you'll have some time to do your research and work out which fish work best together. And we'll help you out all we can, just get the names of some of the fish you like and post them up and we'll let you know what is suitable.

 

[waterdrop]

Seeing that you've just received some nice introductions from some of our most experienced members, I'll just throw in a few thoughts and reassure you that the advice of the above long posts is well worth studying!

Regarding tank size, there is a problem at the smaller range of sizes in that the parameters of the water and fish environment are less stable and so can actually be a bit more difficult to maintain, especially for beginners. As you get up to 40, 50 (US Gallons) and beyond you begin to get a different set of problems in that some tasks, like water changes, can become quite labor intensive and of course equipment can get quite bit more expensive.

So for a beginner and family situation like you describe, there is kind of a starter "sweet spot" ranging from 10g, 15g, 20g to maybe 40g depending on budget. Shape and size of your space can be a determining factor. Tanks are quite heavy and need to be in a safe place. They need to be where people can see them but not in very high traffice areas where they might be accidently hit. They need to be out of direct sunlight.

MW has given you an excellent run-down on salt vs. fresh, cold vs. warm. A very common pathway is to choose a "tropical community" tank and this would seem to fit your situation. You are not interested in goldfish (cold/fresh) and you are concerned about budget (goes a bit against cold or warm salt) and you are a beginner (for whom warm fresh (tropical fish) setups are often a best choice. As MW says, people often move most easily into marine only if they've had several years of freshwater tropical experience behind them.

BTT has given you a start on the most important introductory material to turn your attention to, learning about the nitrogen cycle and thus having some new information to help you make a more informed decision about the all-important filter you will need to buy for the tank (or to critique it if it comes in a kit.) If you have the patience and time to learn a little more about individual pieces of equipment it can significantly enhance your later experience, but I admit it could probably try your patience, which will already be challanged by the extremely necessary fishless cycling.

When one up and decides to plunge into a new hobby, one can't help but formulate ideas about what will be important and what to learn first. In reality there will be a very different path that is ideal. You have stumbled across a great place and the members here can guide you through a great experience if you choose to interact a lot, so I highly recommend being open to this.

By the way, it really is a -great- fun thing to do as a family with children!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[biggreeny]

arggh!!! the frustration.

firstly id like to thank all who have help me with this info.
but after all my homework/reading up and talking about this.
i come home from work to find a 30lt tank set up with 5 "platties"
(my partner decided to surprise me. she ment well). im partialy to blame as i should of gone into more detail with her.
all this has come from the local pet shop to my dismay should stick to selling puppys and cats.
has sold her a 30lt tank, filter(hang over the side type??), heather, gravel, 1 plant (plastic and very small).
and mainly the fish. and forgot the most important thing: a water test kit!
( i can say they did know how to tell the difference between male and female and the recomended ratio)

now the damage is done my main qestion is:

what do i do know?

will this be a disaster??

 

[Miss Wiggle]

you've a choice basically. either take the lot back to the lfs and ask for a refund and then start again and do it properly.

or you can muddle through with a fishless cycle which can be hard work, can cause permanent damage to the fish and may well result in the deaths of some fish. have a read of the topic in my sig 'whats cycling' which explains what you'd need to do, also have a read through some of the topics in the new to the hobby forum where people are in this situation, you'll get a better idea of the trials and tribulations from that than anything else.

 

[biggreeny]

as a return is out of the question.
and after some more reading up.
a few more questions:

first of all i know i need a test kit asap!

have i got to many fish for the size if my tank?

can i introduce other plants(are plastic ones ok?)/ deco to the tank without a worry.

why is my smallest male only pestering the largest female he has others to annoy?

what signs do i have to look for to tell if im in trouble?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

a 30 litre tank is 8 US Gallons, you can have 1" of fish per US Gallon of water, platties are about 2" each so you've 10" of fish. It's not terrible but it is a heavy stocking particularly for a cycle with fish so you are going to have to do a lot of water changes to keep things in order. Added to this, for their size platies are actually quite big waste producers. It's manageable but not far off the limit of manageable if that makes sense!

As you quite rightly identified the most important thing is to get a test kit, until you have one assume the worst as that's the safest way. So until you get a test kit you need to do large daily water changes, think around 75%. When you get the test kit you need to work out what %age of water you need to change to keep both ammonia and nitrite below 0.25ppm and just keep doing water changes until they are both steady at 0.

There's no point sugaring the pill here, you need to prepare yourself for the possibility that some of these fish may die.

While you're just starting out check what filter media you have, make sure there's no zeolite in there.

what ratio of male and female's do you have?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Oh and, list of common symptoms to watch out for, if you get any of these then post up with the details and we’ll advise as appropriate

General lethargy
Not eating
Resting on the floor of the tank
Darting around the tank – think agitated
White spots like grains of sand on the body
Torn fins
Fins look like they’ve been eaten away, edges either red or white
Gasping at the surface for air
White fluffy growth
Red swollen anus
Fish flicking or rubbing against objects in the tank
Eye’s swollen ‘popped out’ of the head
Sores or ulcers
Open wounds

 

[biggreeny]

well to sart. 2 males 3 females.
they all seem to be active happy and social.
but for an hour the smallest ( male: i did my homework on this so im sure its a he.)
pestered the largest (female). chasing her round and getting right in beside her as close as he could.
(im pretty sure what he was up to but better to ask stupid questions than being proved a fool).

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yup your assumptions are correct

platy's (and other similar livebearers) are the rabbits of the fish world..... they're at it all the time so get used to it!

it's good that you have more females than males, but I would say one more females would be an ideal ration, however i would strongly advise against adding any more fish to the tank, so if possible you may want to think about returning one of the males to the store. Again if you can't then it is manageable, but on the limit of manageable.

you should think now about what you will do with fry, you can expect each female to have 20 babies a month..... i'm sure you can do the maths.... over a few months thats a whole lot of babies, and then after a few months the babies will also start reproducing.

It's highly unlikley that the fish shop or any aquarists will be able to take that many babies off your hands on a regular basis so you're either gonna need an ever expanding supply of tanks to keep all the babies, or take the 'natural selection' approach. An awful lot of aquarists will go for natural selection, basically if you do nothing to save the babies most of them will be eaten, the odd one or two will survive but you should be able to manage or find homes for just a couple of fish. It may sound cruel but when you start to do the maths behind saving all the fish you'll see it's often the only sensible approach and you can get some comfort that this is what would happen in the wild, fish like this only produce so many babies as they know only the odd one or two will survive. It can be a tricky conversation to have with your wife/girlfriend/kids though.

 

[biggreeny]

thank you. this info is all very helpfull.
(i should actualy rename this thread "crash course in fresh water tropical fis(what not to do)"

 

[simonmac2]

Welcome BG

i am [still] in the same place you are now. I promised my daughter fish for winning a school prize, and THEN did the research - nightmare! being playing catchup ever since.

i put the fish in a small 9L plastic tank so that it was easy to do the water changes to keep their tank as non-toxic as possible. The main tank (180L) is going through a fishless cycle and am on day 28 (although after a bacteria killing act due to idiocy am probably at about day 18 from a phase perspective.)

I test every day with the API kit both the main tank and the "hotel tank" for both ammonia and nitrites, and top up the ammonia each night in the main one.

i am lucky in that my hotel tank contains 6 zebra danios and i can see the the eggs being washed away each water change - got fry in another tank that my daughter witnessed so had to keep them. And even doing water changes on multipletanks is easy as long as the tanks are small. my 9L bucket takes 1ml of dechlor and i can clean and replenish both small tanks from that - the 180L is no where that easy and frequent changes on a 30L would get on my nerves FWIW

until the tank is cycled i would definately seperate the boys and girls. my fry are in an ex-ice cream carton (1L) and seem ok, if bored silly. the hotel tank was going to be used as the quarantine tank eventually and so no lost cost there - it is up to you - but that way you have to manage a small tank and number of fish while the main tank gets sorted.

The downside is that you [well i do anyway] get slagged silly for having a lovely big tank with no fish

Simon