New member, looking for advice on a poorly Gourami

[DampHaggis]

I would rethink your last sentence....

Fully understood, Byron. The clove oil method, whilst effective, was not without a few seconds of major distress for the fish, and I felt the need for a swift brandy afterwards. The 'smack it with a brick' method had conjured some nauseating seal-clubbing-esque imagery in my mind, however this (of course!) couldn't be further removed from what you have described! I retract my earlier statement - continuing to show my ignorance! Should I have the unfortunate need again, the paper towel and thump method will be used.

Yes, 120 cm is 4 feet, and this is the recommended length for the larger rainbows. The danios will enjoy this too.

Good - this means I don't have to move to a bigger house!

Yes, we are not suggesting increasing fish shoals in the present tanks.

To be honest, out of respect for you and the for the sound advice you're providing, I guess I wanted to provide some assurance that I'm soaking up what you're telling me like the proverbial sponge, and absolutely not about to go charging off doing anything else stupid...!

Your tanks are beautiful! Sold. I'll spare myself some pain and go for play sand And it so happens that I do fancy some cories! But I'm in no hurry... ;-)

I've had a fascinating few hours today reading up on my species' natural habitats, spent a while on seriouslyfish.com, so I know now the environments I should be aiming to replicate. I've taken tomorrow off work to make sure I've got enough time to do more research on plants, get the order placed, and still have them delivered at the weekend.

I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that a whole new dimension has been added to the world of fish as I know it in the last 24hrs! I am beyond fascinated, if a tad dumbfounded as to how so much of it had managed to pass me by thus far... My oppressed fish will be thanking you soon enough.

I still need to figure out a plan for the remaining dwarf blue gourami though. I spoke to the pet shop manager, explained the situation honestly and asked if they might be able to take him back, but he declined due to the other one having been sick and, under those circumstances, all they could do would be to euthanise him. I only have the two options. I leave him with the female bettas in the 60 litre, or I move him to the new 46 litre with the guppies. In today's research I've been trying to gauge which is the lesser of the two evils, and I think on balance, the 60 with the bettas would be the better option: (a) there would be far fewer fish per litre, and (b) bettas' tails maybe less likely to provoke aggression than those of the guppies? Tenuous... Your thoughts?

 

[NickAu]

That 15 with the male is perfect, You dont need to do anything.

The 60 is also fine for the girls maybe needs a plant or 2 extra, Sorry to say this but you cant keep the Gourami with the girls it will end in disaster, Bettas and Gourami are not tank mates they will fight.

 

[NickAu]

The clove oil method, whilst effective, was not without a few seconds of major distress for the fish,

I agree, if not done correctly it causes undue stress on the fish,

The best and quickest method, Get a net and net the fish, then using your thumb and forefinger crush its head, sounds gruesome but it only takes 3 or 4 seconds.

 

[DampHaggis]

Thanks. Good to know I've done something right in the 15 litre, although more by luck than judgement, to be fair...;-) The CPD's will still go into the 46 litre on their own though, once the current occupants are in the 240.

Could you suggest good plants for the 60 the girls would enjoy? They love snoozing in the camboba. Gave it a hefty prune a couple of weeks ago, but it does make it the full height of the tank, which makes for a tiered array of betta cushions

 

[Byron]

Concerning the surviving gourami, I would suggest trying it in with the female bettas. Keep a close eye on things. This would be my first choice, over the gourami with guppies.

If you have good luck with cabomba, keep doing whatever you're doing. My light is insufficient for this beautiful plant. Aside from that, all anabantids love floating plants, or plants at the surface. This replicates their natural habitat and gives them security too. The cabomba may well be doing this already.

 

[DampHaggis]

Thanks, Byron, Nick, for your thoughts on the gourami. He's stuck in the 60 litre with the both the bettas and the guppies for the timebeing anyway, but hopefully the new 46 litre will be decent enough state to be able take the guppies a fortnight hence.

The camboba is indeed lovely... It does shed needles with the bettas clambering through it. I have a quick whip round with a small net every few days.

I have salvinia floating in all three tanks. It's doing really well in the Fluval with some nice root growth dangling down, but it's struggling in both of the Biorbs. I'd been wondering if there maybe something in the nature of the biorbs' circulation that this plant doesn't like. Any clues? Or any less fussy alternatives you could suggest?

 

[Byron]

I have salvinia floating in all three tanks. It's doing really well in the Fluval with some nice root growth dangling down, but it's struggling in both of the Biorbs. I'd been wondering if there maybe something in the nature of the biorbs' circulation that this plant doesn't like. Any clues? Or any less fussy alternatives you could suggest?

I have 8 tanks, all have plants, and all have floaters. I have Water Sprite (Ceratopteris cornuta), Water Lettuce (Pistia stratiotes), temperate (unfortunately) Frogbit, Salvinia minima or S.natans, and duckweed. Not all together, though some are in some tanks. But it is interesting how with basically identical light, fish load and ferts, some do better in some tanks, some waste away, some won't grow together.

When it comes to anabantids, you want substantial floating plants, and Water Sprite is the most ideal for this. But, you can also have the lower plants at the surface, which works as well. But Salvinia is rather useless for the purpose of anabantids, or similar browsers like some pencilfish. These fish need the dangling root mass or thicker leaves like the cabomba. They hide among this, feed off the leaves, and anabantids build their bubblenests in these plants.

It took my present Salvinia several weeks to get settled, and I added it to more than one tank, but now it is growing so fast it almost doubles every week in the 70g and even more rapidly in the 90g (got introduced there accidentally one week, next week it was covering 2 square feet), but it doesn't do much at all and even stops in a couple other tanks; it wastes away due i expect to the warmer temp of 80F in the Chocolate Gourami tank. I don't know about "biorbs" so there could be an air or water circulation issue?

 

[NickAu]

When it comes to anabantids, you want substantial floating plants, and Water Sprite.

Riccia fluitans makes a great bed for a betta.

One of my fish sleeping, I had to sneak up on it and use a flash.

When it comes to Bettas and plants there is 1 golden rule to follow, There is no such thing as too many plants.

This is ideal when it comes to floating plants for Bettas and it can even become a feature of the tank, I went for the wild pond look. I like the wild natural look.

Most people hate Duck weed because " it can take over the tank" I love it and its No big deal, Fast growing plants like duckweed, salvania, hornwort are nutrient sponges.

 

[DampHaggis]

Absolutely brilliant! Thanks @Byron and @NickAu for the tips, generally showing me the error of my ways and getting me on the right track!

Cracking on with the plant ordering now, for the new tanks as well as some top ups for the existing, then out to get a bag of play sand and appropriate branches and/or driftwood.

I'll post some pics with the tank builds, and of what I know will be far happier fish when I gradually start moving them in.

In terms of getting the new tanks cycled, I figured I'd run them fishless for a week, using Fluval Cycle bio enhancer to help kick start them. I've read that adding ammonia directly (while still fishless!) can help to expedite matters, but I'd prefer to check with you first in case I did anything daft! I've got a couple of net bags with the Fluval ceramic media in my existing 46 litre to help get the biocultures going in readiness. I'd be glad for your advice on anything clever I can do to speed up the cycling and ready for occupants as quickly as is safe?

@Byron
On Biorbs, if you're interested...
http://www.biorb.com/en-gb/about/reef-one-technology/

They don't appear to sell outside of the UK which is probably why you've never heard of them. The theory is good, and to be fair knowing now what I didn't know in the start, the 'plug & play' nature of them have probably contributed to my losing as few fish as I have! Drawbacks though. With the central bubble tubes in all models and the prerequisite chunky ceramic media that has to go in the bottom, they're a bit limiting. There's also more than a hint of fashion over function with them. I'd never have paid money for the 60 litre I was gifted to start with - I'd much rather see the fish from more angles than have the garish red surround! The 15 litre I picked up as an ex-display model for just a few quid on the back of a pet shop conversation about my desire to have a male betta. The small one at least is clear acrylic so I can see my little guy from all angles, and being able to see everywhere it's possible to do a daily CPD head count.

 

[NickAu]

Cant wait for the photos,

With the 15 make sure the current isn't to strong, With live plants and only 1 betta you should hardly need current same for the tank with the females.

 

[DampHaggis]

Can't wait to be in a position to take photos!

The only place in the 15 I could even remotely describe the current as strong is directly above the bubble tube right in the centre. I've got an air stone in to break down the bubbles and slow the flow a little. That said, my male doesn't seem perturbed by it and often traverses the fastest area when he's pushing his ping-pong ball around the surface with his snout, so it doesn't appear to be an issue for him. There's no suction issues with filter intake either. Just the draw in through the ceramic media into the embedded filter cartridge as dictated by the external air pump. These are definitely slow-flowing tanks.

 

[Byron]

In terms of getting the new tanks cycled, I figured I'd run them fishless for a week, using Fluval Cycle bio enhancer to help kick start them. I've read that adding ammonia directly (while still fishless!) can help to expedite matters, but I'd prefer to check with you first in case I did anything daft! I've got a couple of net bags with the Fluval ceramic media in my existing 46 litre to help get the biocultures going in readiness. I'd be glad for your advice on anything clever I can do to speed up the cycling and ready for occupants as quickly as is safe?

@Byron
On Biorbs, if you're interested...
http://www.biorb.com/en-gb/about/reef-one-technology/

I've seen "biorb" type tanks in stores but never bothered to look at them closely because they are too small and/or too expensive for my purposes.

On the cycling, when you have live plants in the tank, i do not recommend adding any sort of ammonia. This can work, but it also can fail, and it is not necessary. Ammonia is toxic to all lifeforms (except certain bacteria) so there is the risk of damaging and killing plants and other types of bacteria you want in the substrate. And the live plants work safely on their own.

Plants need nitrogen, and most aquarium species prefer this as ammonium (ammonia). They can take up quite a lot of this; fast growing plants, especially floating species, are referred to as "ammonia sponges" solely because they use a lot of ammonia/ammonium, far more than the fish can normally provide. Once you have plants growing, and here I always recommend some floating plants, you can add fish slowly with absolutely no "cycling" worries. The cycle will still establish but it will be slower and you will not see ammonia or nitrite because they will not be high enough to be detected. We can discuss which fish and numbers' main thing is to get the plants growing.

 

[DampHaggis]

We can discuss which fish and numbers' main thing is to get the plants growing.

Apologies for the hiatus. Had a sudden bereavement in my immediate family which meant unavoidably having to put the tank setup by a week and change. Additionally, funerals aren't cheap so I've had no choice but to return the 46 litre. New fish tanks are rather a moot point if I can't stretch to my rent! However the 240 litre is now up and running and planted. @Byron , many thanks for the top tip on the play sand front! @NickAu - lots of water sprite and some hornwort in there

The filter has been running since Tuesday evening, and I am using the Fluval Cycle bio-booster which came with the tank, so I'm hopeful I'll be able to commence the great migration! The species moving into this tank will be the danios (leopard, zebra and rosie, 6 in total), the boesmani rainbows (4 - will need a couple more to make up a school, but not rushing..) and the cherry barbs (6). I know the danios are hardy fish which would suggest these would be the best ones to move first. Also they'll be the easiest ones to net. Again, just in terms of ease of capture, the boesmanis next, and the cherry barbs last - I know they'll be a nightmare to move... HOWEVER!! I have very much learned from my mistakes and would defer to instruction on the order of things from my fishy mentors Could you advise me please, Byron?

As I've had to return the new 46 litre, I am now back to having to make the best of what I've got, at least for a few months until I recover from the hefty unexpected funeral costs. My existing 46 litre was going to be the new single-species home for the CPD's I've currently got in the 15 litre with my male betta, and the new 46 litre was going to house the guppies which are currently sharing the 60 litre with the female bettas and the single gourami. Hence I think the only thing I can do now is move the CPD's and guppies in together into the existing 46 litre Fluval Edge. The way the thing is put together and the way the water flows in, it does make for a reasonable replica of a stream-fed pool, so decent enough in terms of both species' natural habitat, and doubtlessly less risky for the CPD's than leaving them in the tiny tank with Winston the betta boy. Would you concur, albeit reluctantly? Ultimately I will still get another tank to enable single species environments for both the guppies and the CPD's, but I have to let my finances recover a little first.

I do need to crack on with the migrations as expediently as possible, as (I suspect) the gourami is even less happy on his own and the guppies causing him some additional stress as there has been some new guppy tail damage going on, so I need to clear out the 46 for them, but not at such a pace that I'm risking the fish that I'm moving out into the 240!

As always, very grateful for the support and advice!

 

[Byron]

I am sorry to hear of your bereavement; our thoughts are with you.

Your plan for stocking sounds fine. Good luck.

Byron.

 

[NickAu]

Hi.
I am sorry to hear of your loss, our thoughts are with you.