New lfs parasite advice

[cowgirluntamed]

We finally now have a local fish store. Salt and fresh. The lady has been maintaining people's tanks as well for 24 years and the store is just over a year old. She never advertised but I saw an article in the local paper and went to check it out.

She has amazing looking fish! Very healthy from what I could see. And she can probably order fish so this could be a great place to shop eventually when tanks are ready.

Now...if any of you followed my threads awhile back, you know of the parasite problem that I got so frustrated with (as well as health issues) that made me decide to finally just put all my fish but my one bristle nose pleco down.

Whatever the parasite is, some sort of planaria possibly (yes, some are bad) but not 100% for sure. I told her about this because they are still in the tank with the pleco. These did kill her sibling but so far she's been ok.

Anyway, she recommended turning the heat up to 81 degrees and adding 1/4 cup of aquarium salt one day and another one in a day or two. This is a ten gallon tank. Isn't that way too much salt? I mean if salt would kill these buggers for good I would love it. She also didnt say how long to leave it like that either. I have some Paraguard that I just haven't gotten around to using...but I don't want to hurt my pleco in the process!

Any suggestions or comments? Obviously I'm not jumping in to this before research and asking. That just sounds like a horrendous amount of salt to put in with my pleco. And the last thing I want to do is hurt her! Thanks for any help!

 

[Byron]

Plecos are very sensitive to salt; in another forum there was a member who had a pleco that had most of its outer cell layer literally burnt off from salt that the owner had been using regularly thinking it would do something (?). Treating a specific issue with salt is one thing, but it may not be the best cure. The most I would use with fish present is 2 grams per liter; 1 level teaspoon is approximately 6 grams, so that treats 3 liters. This is safe for many fish, but not all; I don't know how much a 1/4 cup works out to, but if it is more than 2 g per liter you need to remove the pleco before adding the salt--which might not be a bad idea whatever the level.

If I read your post correctly, it is the "planaria" that you want to get rid of, correct? I've no idea if salt is effective or not for planaria...if this is planaria. Without knowing the exact issue, treatment is always risky, and can end up worse than leaving it alone.

Increasing the temperature with salt is sometimes effective; the idea here is that the higher temperature speeds up the life cycle of the parasite. This works with ich and velvet. As for planaria or some form of worm... ??? And 81F is not very high, 86F is usual but again this is ich and velvet and similar.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

I thought it was too much salt...and I knew about the heat because I've treated ich that way before. Maybe I should try to start at the beginning on way I'm not sure if it's planaria or something else.

Bought water lettuce off of ebay. Put it in all tanks then (a 5 gal, 2 10 gals, and a 20 gal). The 5 had a betta and three nerite snails. One then had male guppies and 2 nerite snails. The other ten was set up to receive 2 baby bristle nose plecos. The 20 had glow light tetras and black neon tetras and three nerite snails.

First thing I noticed was hydra all over my betta's tank. He also had started to get little white cyst like things (one at a time, too big to be ich) that after a few days would fall off. I thought injury from started many hydra? Got him and 3 snails in empty 10 gallon. He stayed in it for a week or so? He did have one cyst in there.

Plecos are coming...got his 5 gallon back together after treating with hydrogen peroxide and got him and snails put back in. Got plecos and put in empty 10. No more hydra in 5.

Next issue...nerite snails in 5 gallon hiding in water flow from spray bar. All of them...huddling together. Not right. Looked really close and saw all of these nasty "worms" sliding across the glass. White, thin, maybe no longer than half an inch? Tons of them. Took snais out and treated with fenbendozole. Also tried no planaria. Snails are in clear tote. Betta ended up with dropsy later and passed.

Snails in tote...not moving much. Then started like what looked like they were trying to come out of their shell and just looked like they were in pain. Took closer look at side of tote. ..tons of these worm things! This was clean water. So...got a small bowl of clean water, set up another tote, and every day or every other day I would get fresh water in the small bowl, dunk the snails and place them in new fresh water in tote. I would empty the other tote and bleach it. Bleach seems to be the only thing that kills these. Ended up losing one snail. The 5 gallon was finishing the fenbendozole and when done I filled it back up. Snails went into ten gallon with other snails and guppies (only tank not treated with No Planaria).

Guppies had been dying off (almost 2 years so thought old age?) Had baby plecos in the other. One outgoing one not. The outgoing one just stayed still on the sand for a few hours before I got a turkey baster and blew some water at it. Dead....looked closer at the tank and these things were all over it too. So far, not sure why, my other pleco is alive. Still have these things in it though.

The 20. It was fine for a while. I'm not sure when I noticed those things in there. Black neon tetras seemed to be starting to waste away. Started dying. Lost a glow light tetra too before giving up on tank. Also treated it with general cure, fenbendazole, and No Planaria at different stages.

Guppies had all died in the ten. Got the snails from the 20 and put in it to put down fish in 20 as it was too overwhelming.

5 gallon got 2 male guppies during this time. I believe they came with internal parasites and some other thing that was longer than these planaria from Petsmart. One died, put other down when I did the 20. Had treated with general cure and no luck killing either parasite.

Now...I only have the 2 ten gallons. One with one plecos and these "things", the other with now 4 nerite snails as I had some die off. I'm just worried now that maybe the snails carry them but I haven't seen any of these things in that particular tank ever at all...I'm not sure why unless the guppies took care of them after the plants went in. Now, the water lettuce did not survive in the two tens, not the right light, but survived longer in the other tanks.

My worry is what happens if I can't get rid of these in the ten with my pleco? She's supposed to go in my 55 later but not unless I can get rid of these. They transfer so easily it seems!

So...that's where I am at right now. This lady may have great looking fish and I may by there later for that reason. But possibly not the best advice. (She also prefers Marineland filters over aquaclear).

But...what could these things be? They won't die! Oh, and my 20 still has 3 inches or so of water, driftwood in it, and these buggers are in there still with no fish and no feeding! Any ideas at all? I was going to put the snails in the 20 when it got ready again, but I'm so nervous they might have this stuff in them or something. Their deaths seemed strange. Trying to flip themselves over before finally not moving any more at all. Is that a normal death for a nerite snail?

Sorry for the long post but I don't want these things spreading and wreaking havoc! Oh and the only other thing I changed in the 20 was switching from seachem tropicall flakes to omega one flakes. I noticed the fish in there deteriorate after that but I really don't think it was the food, maybe me just paying a bit more attention after learning more from here.

 

[NickAu]

Anyway, she recommended turning the heat up to 81 degrees and adding 1/4 cup of aquarium salt

This will kill any freshwater fish fast.

One US cup of table salt converted to gram equals to 273.00 g


PS

I remember the thread about the alleged planaria, I still think its not Planaria because you used No planaria and I can tall you that stuff work's like magic

 

[cowgirluntamed]

This will kill any freshwater fish fast.

One US cup of table salt converted to gram equals to 273.00 g


PS

I remember the thread about the alleged planaria, I still think its not Planaria because you used No planaria and I can tall you that stuff work's like magic

Yeah, you were the one that suggested it. I just have no idea what to try except this Paraguard but I don't even know if that will work.

 

[Byron]

If these "worms" things are still present, you need to find out exactly what they are, then deal with appropriate treatment which may be tearing down the tank and drying or tossing substrate, wood, filter media, etc. I will not guess at disease issues as I have next to no experience; you may need to find a qualified biologist/microbiologist person.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

I don't have a problem with breaking it down at all. I can scrounge up some plastic totes for temporary housing. My problem is...how do I get her out as easy as possible as well as not touching things much? I want to stress her out as little as possible of course.

I am up to doing like I did with the snails...minus dipping her in a cup of water before switching to clean water. But if I have to I can switch containers daily and bleach stuff for a bit. Do you think that is a good idea? Or would that stress her out too much?

Also...I have a double sponge filter in the tank, can I save those sponges by cleaning them somehow or should I toss them? I do have extras.

 

[Byron]

Again I preface my comments by mentioning that I am not experienced in "disease" issues so I am being very general in suggestions. Things that cold/would apply whatever the issue actually may be, while not meaning to suggest "this" or "that" specifically.

I would want to isolate the survivor pleco for some time before introducing it to any future community tank. Unless you can somehow determine with confidence the issue, and know that it could not be transmitted via the pleco.

Then I would do a thorough tear down of the tank where this was/is present. Toss out substrate (it is virtually impossible to absolutely "disinfect" substrate without making it impossible to ever use again) and filter media (same rationale). Wood can absorb things, so out it goes. Rock might be safer, but without knowing exactly the issue, better not to risk it.

If you do manage to find someone who can identify the "critters" it may be possible to do something less drastic. This is usually what we need when there is an obvious problem that cannot be adequately dealt with. I did this two years ago with my 90g that had some problem I had spent months trying to isolate; turned out to be a very stubborn parasite (possibly either ich or velvet) problem that never appeared as the visible external spots but only in the gills, and simultaneously an organics issue that kept the water slightly hazy. Once I knew there were two issues, both were easier to address. But it took a lot of help from a pro, Neale Monks.

Byron.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

I'm not even sure I could get a sample of them with how small they are. I think I emailed someone once at a college around here but they weren't even sure they could help even if I got a sample.

Anyway, the pleco is isolated already. She's my only fish currently. The nerites are in a different tank. On this one I have a little bit of sand that will be easy to throw out, a chunk of wood, the sponges on the filter, and plastic plants. I also have some slate caves. I may try to bleach those and then let them sit before going back in as I'd hate to just throw them out.

One question though....will she be OK without some wood for a bit? That way I can make sure none of these things are going to get on it if I end up moving some with her?

I may try to find someone again first...maybe email the fish vet that I took my other pleco to a while back. Maybe he may know of someone. Worth a shot anyway!

 

[Byron]

I'm not even sure I could get a sample of them with how small they are. I think I emailed someone once at a college around here but they weren't even sure they could help even if I got a sample.

Anyway, the pleco is isolated already. She's my only fish currently. The nerites are in a different tank. On this one I have a little bit of sand that will be easy to throw out, a chunk of wood, the sponges on the filter, and plastic plants. I also have some slate caves. I may try to bleach those and then let them sit before going back in as I'd hate to just throw them out.

One question though....will she be OK without some wood for a bit? That way I can make sure none of these things are going to get on it if I end up moving some with her?

I may try to find someone again first...maybe email the fish vet that I took my other pleco to a while back. Maybe he may know of someone. Worth a shot anyway!

The pleco is a Bristlenose, so it needs some real wood in the tank, as the wood fibre is essential to its diet. I believe it is not so much eating the wood for nutrition, but something in it that maintains a healthy intestinal tract. So I would get a smallish piece. I agree about using any existing wood...maybe a new piece.

 

[NickAu]

Just as general information.

I have used No Planaria on 2 tanks with great results and the only deaths were the Planaria and Malaysian Trumpet snails. Both tanks have Red Cherry shrimp Kuhli Loaches and a BN plec.

With No planaria less is more, On day 1 I used 3/4 of a spoon ( the spoon comes with the no planaria and is tiny ) Day 2 I used less than half a spoon and day 3 I used a quarter of a spoon, During treatment make sure you have a airstone running.

Please Note
No Planaria kills MTS Rams horns and Mystery snails

 

[cowgirluntamed]

The pleco is a Bristlenose, so it needs some real wood in the tank, as the wood fibre is essential to its diet. I believe it is not so much eating the wood for nutrition, but something in it that maintains a healthy intestinal tract. So I would get a smallish piece. I agree about using any existing wood...maybe a new piece.

I was just meaning like maybe a week without it. I know permenantly they need it. But Im guessing if I did switch her that these things will follow first. So I didn't want anything in that couldn't be absolutely cleaned for just a bit in the tote she would temporarily go in.

Just as general information.

I have used No Planaria on 2 tanks with great results and the only deaths were the Planaria and Malaysian Trumpet snails. Both tanks have Red Cherry shrimp Kuhli Loaches and a BN plec.

With No planaria less is more, On day 1 I used 3/4 of a spoon ( the spoon comes with the no planaria and is tiny ) Day 2 I used less than half a spoon and day 3 I used a quarter of a spoon, During treatment make sure you have a airstone running.

Please Note
No Planaria kills MTS Rams horns and Mystery snails

Thanks again Nick. I don't plan on using it again for this as I did two treatments and they came back each time. And I did basically what you did too.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

I actually managed to get a couple of pictures. Sorry about the dust and water spots on the glass. I also emailed a vet and sent him these two pics as requested as well.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Ok, got a reply back from the vet. He thinks it is a non parasitic flatworm and that maybe something else killed the fish. Who knows...maybe it was something small enough I couldn't see.

Anyway, he said to get Salifert Flatworm Exit which is levamisole. This product says it's for reef tanks but I've heard of levamisole treating things in freshwater too, right? Would this be a good go to med then?

 

[NickAu]

I have never used this product but I have heard of it.

What is Levamisole Hydrochloride?

Levamisole Hydrochloride (Levamisole HCl), is an anthelmintic (anti-worm) agent commonly used in large livestock such as cattle, pigs and sheep. In 1971 it was found to have immunostimulatory properties and investigation into its use in humans began to expand. Currently, Levamisole HCl is used in humans for diseases related to imbalances in the regulation of immune responses or deficiencies of the immune system, including autoimmune diseases, chronic and recurrent diseases, chronic infections and cancer. It has beneficial effects on host defense mechanisms and restores depressed immune responses in animals and humans. Another interesting use of levamisole in humans is as a treatment for common warts (verruca vulgaris).

News of its anthelmintic efficacy and immune system benefits has been known among aquatic hobbyists for years. The problem, however, is that there is not much in the way of definitive information on its use and application in the hobby. Anecdotal accounts of how it has worked for those ‘outside the box’ aquarists who first braved its use with fish, and accounts of personal experience with Levamisole in individual aquariums are helpful, but the ‘your mileage may vary’ factor is immense. Word about its usefulness in treating internal parasites in the ornamental fish trade has spread, but information regarding its use is limited and sometimes conflicting. From the information I have found thus far, Levamisole HCl is safe to use in aquaria and effective against many internal parasites, especially nematodes, when used in appropriate dosages. It does not harm the bio-filter, plants, invertebrates or uninfected fish. As an added benefit, it boosts the immune competence of fish, humans, large animals, birds and some reptiles.

This article hopes to pull together what scientific information is available, a bunch of individual accounts, apply some common sense, and put together in one place a helpful guide to the use of Levamisole HCl for treating aquarium fish.

http://www.loaches.com/Members/shari2/levamisole-hydrochloride-1