New fish keeper, new tank questions!

[Byron]

No worries, I was going to use a single piece of the larger rock without stacking it and scatter the pebbles around the rock on and on sand. I'll politely decline the offer of fish shop filter media then, I hadn't even thought about pathogens so good call on that one. Could I use filter media out of a healthy, established Koi pond (my fathers pond) or is this one of those cases where it's best to purchase one of the bottled bacteria products? As for floating plants, I already have water lettuce, they had them on offer in the fish shop for 25p so I bought a couple. I wanted to get hold of Amazonian frogbit also to provide shading for the fish when I get them so I'll order some now and put it in the tank as soon as I start.

Thanks.

The danger with media from an outdoor pond is similar. Tropical fish have certain natural immunities to various pathogens that occur in their habitat. But pathogens differ from tropical to temperate areas, which is one reason one should never release aquarium fish/plants into the natural ecosystem. It works both ways.

Water lettuce is nice, I have this plant; and Frogbit, though mine is one of the temperate species (only found this out when it flowered and a botanist pointed it out). I'd like to try the true tropical Frogbit if I ever find it locally.

 

[Byron]

No worries, I was going to use a single piece of the larger rock without stacking it and scatter the pebbles around the rock on and on sand. I'll politely decline the offer of fish shop filter media then, I hadn't even thought about pathogens so good call on that one. Could I use filter media out of a healthy, established Koi pond (my fathers pond) or is this one of those cases where it's best to purchase one of the bottled bacteria products? As for floating plants, I already have water lettuce, they had them on offer in the fish shop for 25p so I bought a couple. I wanted to get hold of Amazonian frogbit also to provide shading for the fish when I get them so I'll order some now and put it in the tank as soon as I start.

Thanks.

The danger with media from an outdoor pond is similar. Tropical fish have certain natural immunities to various pathogens that occur in their habitat. But pathogens differ from tropical to temperate areas, which is one reason one should never release aquarium fish/plants into the natural ecosystem. It works both ways.

Water lettuce is nice, I have this plant; and Frogbit, though mine is one of the temperate species (only found this out when it flowered and a botanist pointed it out). I'd like to try the true tropical Frogbit if I ever find it locally.

 

[HazMatt]

If you ever decide to, you can stack rocks. I have stacked several flat rocks to create cave systems. However, I used aquarium sealant to hold them together. I stacked and glued them together outside the tank and let them cure for a few days before adding the structure to the tank.

 

[SeanTrollope]

i have done similar if not the same thing and it does work very effectively.

 

[neoyyf]

Wow water lettuce for 25p! You should see what theyre going for on ebay. My water parameters are virtually the same as yours, high ph hard water. So a little google led me to this site: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/fwhardness.htm

Now it is a lot to read but il sum up some popular fish and plants that is commonly available in uk:

Fish
1. Livebearers - include guppies, platies, mollies, swordtails, endlers. Be aware that Endler Guppies are a hybrid of endlers and guppies. I think i remember reading that Endlers are going extinct but to get a pure strain is difficult
2. Egg Layers - most cichlids (except angelfish, discus and rams), bumbke bee gobies, glassfish, rainbowfish, killifish (like lampeye), xray tetra, blind cave tetra
3. It also mentions some brackish water types
4. Though not fish, I will add that cherry shrimp neocaridina species will do well and you can now get them in different colours like blue, black, brown, green, yellow etc.. and of course red
5. Also will add most, if not all aquatic snails would do well in our water, especially the sulawesi type snails (tylomelania species) aka rabbit snails

Please note, you will need to research to see if your tank is big enough to house any that interest you and also their compatibility with each other living together as a community

Plants
1. Ceratophyllum demersum aka Hornwort
2. Cryptocoryne species aka Crypts
3. Echinodorus bleheri aka Amazon Sword
4. Egeria densa. I went and got something similar Elodea densa but it didnt do well in warm water so im keeping it outside
5. Elodea canadensis. Similar to the one above
6. Vallisneria
7. Now i will add in my experience Moss Balls do really well
8. So does Java Moss

Just want to add if you want to keep snails or shrimp, you must research how to wash the plants to keep the animals safe as often it is dosed with pesticides to keep them snail free. The opposite is also true, if you do not want snails in your tank then you must treat the plants before putting them in the tank

Also if you are serious about keeping plants, you will need either an active substrate, one that is made for growing plants (or you can use top soil, but check youtube) or use a inert substate with a small grain size and use fertilisers. Apparently if the substrate is big pieces then the plants will keep uprooting although i tie my plants with aquarium safe rocks and plant them like that since i keep changing the layout of my tank

 

[NewFishPerson]

If you ever decide to, you can stack rocks. I have stacked several flat rocks to create cave systems. However, I used aquarium sealant to hold them together. I stacked and glued them together outside the tank and let them cure for a few days before adding the structure to the tank.

Good to know! I have a lot of black aquarium safe silicone (about 7 tubes of it) so if I ever do decide to create a cave system I can use that!

Wow water lettuce for 25p! You should see what theyre going for on ebay. My water parameters are virtually the same as yours, high ph hard water. So a little google led me to this site: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/fwhardness.htm

Now it is a lot to read but il sum up some popular fish and plants that is commonly available in uk:

Fish
1. Livebearers - include guppies, platies, mollies, swordtails, endlers. Be aware that Endler Guppies are a hybrid of endlers and guppies. I think i remember reading that Endlers are going extinct but to get a pure strain is difficult
2. Egg Layers - most cichlids (except angelfish, discus and rams), bumbke bee gobies, glassfish, rainbowfish, killifish (like lampeye), xray tetra, blind cave tetra
3. It also mentions some brackish water types
4. Though not fish, I will add that cherry shrimp neocaridina species will do well and you can now get them in different colours like blue, black, brown, green, yellow etc.. and of course red
5. Also will add most, if not all aquatic snails would do well in our water, especially the sulawesi type snails (tylomelania species) aka rabbit snails

Please note, you will need to research to see if your tank is big enough to house any that interest you and also their compatibility with each other living together as a community

Plants
1. Ceratophyllum demersum aka Hornwort
2. Cryptocoryne species aka Crypts
3. Echinodorus bleheri aka Amazon Sword
4. Egeria densa. I went and got something similar Elodea densa but it didnt do well in warm water so im keeping it outside
5. Elodea canadensis. Similar to the one above
6. Vallisneria
7. Now i will add in my experience Moss Balls do really well
8. So does Java Moss

Just want to add if you want to keep snails or shrimp, you must research how to wash the plants to keep the animals safe as often it is dosed with pesticides to keep them snail free. The opposite is also true, if you do not want snails in your tank then you must treat the plants before putting them in the tank

Also if you are serious about keeping plants, you will need either an active substrate, one that is made for growing plants (or you can use top soil, but check youtube) or use a inert substate with a small grain size and use fertilisers. Apparently if the substrate is big pieces then the plants will keep uprooting although i tie my plants with aquarium safe rocks and plant them like that since i keep changing the layout of my tank

A very helpful post, thanks for putting that up! Yeah, the Endlers they have there are definitely hybrids between Guppies and pure Endlers. I remember the guy at the fish store telling me that he keeps and breeds 'pure' endlers in his own personal tanks. For this tank I'm leaning towards the idea of a species only tank. When I first started researching fish I was set on mixing a few different Tetra species, but the more I've read, learned and researched the more I'm wanting to go species only! I've had to rule out keeping Tetras because of the water I have here, going with fish that will thrive in hard water is the way I'd feel most comfortable about going about it. I looked at RO water systems but have decided that for now it's best just to play to the strengths of the water out of the tap!

I'd never really considered keeping snails, but the rabbit snails you mentioned look very striking! The ever helpful Cory from Aquarium Coop put up a video about snails recently that has made me want them more! They're something I'm going to consider when it's all up and running.

The plants I'm planning to keep are just the simple ones to start with. I really like the look of Java ferns and certain Anubias species like Anubias Nana Petite so I'm hoping my low tech substrate will suffice for now. I wanted to have the ferns anchored into the substrate and a few Anubias nana petite around the large rock I'm planning on having in the tank. I've heard that Anubias should not be planted into a substrate so the idea I had was to somehow attach the plants to the rock, can either use thin elastic bands or try using thick superglue that I see the pros doing.

I've started cycling the tank now, picked up a bottle of tetra safe start and have added the ammonia solution as per the guide linked earlier in the thread. Still missing a few items, the pebbles I ordered never showed up so I'm waiting on those before I have it set up properly. The plants are not in either because as is always the case, they had sold out just as I go down to buy them . I'm going to order them online from a shop I've seen recommended before though so not the end of the world! Currently have the water heated to 28c to help the bacteria grow, not sure if that's a complete waste of electricity or not but when the fish go in at the end of the cycling process I'll reduce the temperature to 25c. When I do eventually get the fish, I was thinking of stocking 10 Endler Guppy cross - Aqadvisor seems to think that 10x Endlers is less that 40% stocked and 10 normal Guppies are about 70% full. No idea where where the Endler guppy cross sits because they're not listed on there but I'm hoping that somewhere between the two will be fine!

 

[Byron]

The plants I'm planning to keep are just the simple ones to start with. I really like the look of Java ferns and certain Anubias species like Anubias Nana Petite so I'm hoping my low tech substrate will suffice for now. I wanted to have the ferns anchored into the substrate and a few Anubias nana petite around the large rock I'm planning on having in the tank. I've heard that Anubias should not be planted into a substrate so the idea I had was to somehow attach the plants to the rock, can either use thin elastic bands or try using thick superglue that I see the pros doing.

Java Fern and Anubias both have a rhizome, the thick stem-like structure from which the leaves and roots grow. The rhizome must not be buried in the substrate or it will usually rot, killing the plant. Affix it to wood or rock; the white roots can grow down on their own into the substrate, but keep the rhizome above the substrate. Some people use "glue" to affix the plants, I wouldn't myself. I wedge the rhizome carefully into crevices if there are any, or you can use black cotton thread or fishing line, as little as necessary.

Once you have live plants in the tank, I would not add any ammonia. Ammonia is toxic to all life at high enough levels, and it is easy to kill the plants. The SafeStart is fine, alone, with live plants.

 

[NewFishPerson]

Hi again,

Can I just confirm that it is ok to add fish if I have plants in (3x Java Fern, 2x Anubias Nana, Water Lettuce (has split into two separate plants now) and about a hand sized clump of Frogbit) if I add the the Tetra Safe Start about an hour before I buy fish?

The fish I'll be getting are 6x Endler Guppy cross fish that are tiny. I'm also really interested in keeping a few shrimp, in particular Amano Shrimp. I've got the tank setup now, the only change I made was to swap the filter out for a hang on back. The hang on filter will be much easier for me to maintain and the flow is very adjustable, from a raging torrent to a gentle trickle.

Another question is what foods to buy to start out with. I got a free 10g sample of JBL Novobel which is described as a staple food for fish. Should I get anything else like micro pellet foods, wafers or frozen foods?

 

[Byron]

Can I just confirm that it is ok to add fish if I have plants in (3x Java Fern, 2x Anubias Nana, Water Lettuce (has split into two separate plants now) and about a hand sized clump of Frogbit) if I add the the Tetra Safe Start about an hour before I buy fish?

Yes. The main thing is not to add ammonia.

Another question is what foods to buy to start out with. I got a free 10g sample of JBL Novobel which is described as a staple food for fish. Should I get anything else like micro pellet foods, wafers or frozen foods?

I have never seen or used JBL foods, but given the company they are probably good (other members can confirm or not). Generally, it is advisable to use two or three different foods for fish. I always have one veggie-based food (Omega One's Veggie Flake or Kelp Flake is what I'm presently using) and then one or two basic flake or pellet, depending upon the fish. Omega One and New Life Spectrum are the manufacturers I trust, but that doesn't mean others like JBL are not as good.

Shrimp will probably need something specific (my one time with shrimp that arrived in the fish bag, they seemed to thrive on sinking foods for the pygmy cories I had in the tank), again a member with shrimp experience can comment.

 

[NewFishPerson]

Yes. The main thing is not to add ammonia.



I have never seen or used JBL foods, but given the company they are probably good (other members can confirm or not). Generally, it is advisable to use two or three different foods for fish. I always have one veggie-based food (Omega One's Veggie Flake or Kelp Flake is what I'm presently using) and then one or two basic flake or pellet, depending upon the fish. Omega One and New Life Spectrum are the manufacturers I trust, but that doesn't mean others like JBL are not as good.

Shrimp will probably need something specific (my one time with shrimp that arrived in the fish bag, they seemed to thrive on sinking foods for the pygmy cories I had in the tank), again a member with shrimp experience can comment.

Thanks!

I've not added any ammonia to the tank so I should be all set to go. The current water has been in there for three days ,I've not added anything other than de-chlorinator and a small splash of safe start. I'll pick up some vegetable based foods for the fish&shrimp when I'm at the shop, and also pick up some JBL 'NovoGuppy.' Looking at their website gives me a good impression so I'm confident the food is good.

My plan of action tomorrow is as follows:
1. Test the tank to make sure there isn't any unexpected ammonia, nitrite or nitrates present.
2. Hour before I purchase the fish empty the bottle of Tetra Safe Start into the tank.
3. Buy the Fish (6x Endler Guppy Cross)
4. Turn off hood lighting and float fish in aquarium water for 1 hour so the temperature matches.
5. Pour store water from the bag gently through a net into a separate container and place the caught fish into the aquarium, allowing them to swim out in their own time.
5. Keep hood light off for the remainder of the day.

I wont purchase the Shrimp tomorrow, I want to do a bit more research on the different species and how to care for them before I commit to anything. I'm assuming it is wise to keep the initial stocking levels as low as possible anyway so that I minimize the risk of having water quality issues.

 

[NewFishPerson]

Well, the fish are in but the whole episode was more eventful than I was expecting it to be!

The good news is the fish are in and seem to be doing well, they're active little blighters! Now for the eventful bit; the guy at the fish shop seems to have accidentally given me two extra fish.. I noticed when the bag was floating that there was an extra Endler Guppy in the bag so I have 7 of them rather than the deal which was for 6.

The other fish in there was another completely different species of fish altogether. After I had emptied the store water out of the bag I placed the empty fish bag in a bucket of water. I let the Endlers swim out of the net and was sat there watching them getting up to their funny little antics. I heard a slight tapping noise coming from the discarded fish bag, picked the bag up to check and there was a small little Grey fish in there!!! I panicked a little to be honest, quickly wet my hand and tried as carefully as possible to get him out of the bag. He was stuck to the side of the bag but after some pontificating I did manage to get him into the tank. He stuck to the side of the glass for about 2 seconds, then very rapidly darted into the background. I did see him ascend to the waters surface then descend back down about a minute later. He moves like greased lightning!

I've been looking all over the tank for a good five minutes but I cannot find this little fish anywhere, he is either fantastic at camouflage or more worryingly dead somewhere . He was in the empty bag for a good minute or two so I'm a little concerned for his wellbeing.

I picked up more foods by the way, Spirulina flakes, JBL 'NovoGuppy' and Freeze dried brine shrimp.

Edit: The mystery fish is still alive, after I posted this message I went to look at the tank. As I approached I saw him quickly dart away to the back. He blends in perfectly with my neutral coloured pebbles which is making it hard to find. I searched for 'small suckerfish' and I'm 90% sure it's a 'Macrotocinclus affinis'

 

[Byron]

Your "bonus" sounds like some type of catfish, perhaps an Otocinclus. All loricariids and similar are able to withstand being out of water better than most regular fish, though this has its limits. But I have found missing Twig Catfish in the pail of discarded floating plants after a couple minutes and they survived. Otos and cories can breathe air, limited, but still helpful to the fish sometimes.

I trust the Endlers are all males? Or are you intending to breed them? They are not as prolific as other livebearers, but you will have regular fry with male/feemale present.

 

[NewFishPerson]

They're all males yep, I made sure that I didn't purchase females as I had heard that Guppies love nothing more than to procreate! The little catfish is definitely an Otocinclus, he isn't quite as panicked as before and I've seen him stick on to the glass a few times now. I was looking up what to feed him and noticed it says they like to feast on Algae and diatoms/brown algae. There is the smallest amount of diatoms present in a spot on the front of the tank. I have a couple of stones outside from a disused water feature that are coated in green algae so I've placed them in the tank for him to eat.

Most of the Endler Guppies are getting on well, I have seen one resting on the substrate which worried me. I've read this is perfectly normal for new fish and that he is probably just stressed from moving so I'm hoping it is nothing to be concerned about. The others are all chasing one and other and displaying to each other so no problems there.

 

[hobby5]

Hello!

From my experience it is not normal for guppies to rest on the substrate. Maybe very, very rarely at night for sleeping. So you should watch that closely. They might also do that when they are stressed and cannot find a better hiding place.

I would advice against using too much rock or stacking them in your tank as the fish you plan on keeping don't need any rock or caves. Of course you can use them for decoration.

Otocinclus should not be kept in new tanks and not alone, so the best would be to return the guy back to the shop.

I would not recommend to keep shrimp in an empty tank. They need a well planted tank with hiding places to thrive (Java moss!). Also I would recommend to go for some neocaradina instead of the amano shrimp. Those are pretty large and from my experience potentially dangerous for small fish. Also the neocaradina will reproduce, while the amano will not.

Last but not least, get some snails for your tank. They are good for the biology. From my experience the best are ramshorn snails together with Malaysian trumpet snails.

 

[NewFishPerson]

The Endler Guppy X that was resting on the substrate has stopped doing it. I suspect he was stressed from the move so no worries there.

I read up about the Otocinclus and I did see that it isn't a good fit for a new tank because there would be a shortage of food for them to eat. I have a practically endless supply of algae for him to scoff down from a disused water feature outside and I have seen him eating it. Would taking him back really be the best thing for the fish? I do plan on getting others in a month or so time when I start ramping up the number of fish I keep so he wouldn't be alone for long. I'm quite fond of the little guy, he's always stuck to something eating away and has a full belly (I read that was a good sign for them).

Don't worry about stacking rocks, I'm not stacking rocks. I have two 'large' pieces in the tank and really they're not all that big. The substrate has a scattering of small pebbles; a few of which have Java Ferns attached to them. I'm giving shrimp a miss, I'm more interested in fish that I am shrimp to be honest so that was an easy decision to make! I do plan on having snails, but they can wait a few months. Will go for a couple of ornamental snails, perhaps Nerite or Tylomelania snails.

Anyway, so far all of the fish are getting on well, very active, eating well and I've not seen anything show up on the test kit. The Safe Start advises waiting a week until I do a water change so I've not touched that yet. I did accidentally over feed the tank but the hang on filter I have has a surface skimmer attachment so I hooked that up and it took care of that. What felt like a small pinch of food pretty much covered the entire tank!

In a complete moment of madness I did purchase another tank! It's a fair bit bigger than my current 90 litre but comes with stand, external filter and hood. It's less than a year old and was being sold off cheap so the guy could get rid of it! There isn't so much as a scratch on the glass so I'm quite excited to get that setup somewhere. Not quite sure what I was thinking or how I'm going to justify that but I'll think of something