New Aquarist Needing Advice!

[the_lock_man]

Id add to JenJ that live plants and wood help reduce the pH of your tank without causing harm and personally i think natural things make a tank

pH generally is generally between 7 and 8, high pH such as 8 is good for Cichlids. but best thing to do is some research before you buy

 
Reddsam is spot on that natural things make a tank look wonderful - check out our Tank of the Month competition threads if you need convincing! Plants don't affect pH, but they do help to keep nitrate down. In a VERY heavily planted tank, nitrate levels can be 0ppm, although most mature tanks tend to run at about 10-20ppm above the tap water level. Wood can reduce pH, but only in soft water. In hard water, the dissolved minerals keep the pH where it is (this is called buffering). I don't think you'll find any experienced aquarist anywhere that recommends trying to alter your pH, which will be somewhere between 6 and 8. Lower than 7 is acidic water, and higher is alkaline.
 
You need to find out which level yours is. Generally, alkaline fish don't do well in acidic water, whereas acidic fish can survive well in alkaline water - don't ask me why, it's something to do with osmotic regulation, but I can never remember exactly what.
 
Others have given you the heads-up on fishless cycling - and I'm not going to argue with them!
 
Whilst you're waiting for your tank to cycle (cos you're gonna go fishless ), take the opportunity to browse around your local fish shops (us lazy wossnames here refer to them as LFS), make a note of the fish that appeal to you, and then post a list up on the forum. We can then advise you on what works, what doesn't, perhaps some alternatives to think about.
 
And lastly. WELCOME!!

 

[ReddSamurai]

Id add to JenJ that live plants and wood help reduce the pH of your tank without causing harm and personally i think natural things make a tank

pH generally is generally between 7 and 8, high pH such as 8 is good for Cichlids. but best thing to do is some research before you buy

 
Reddsam is spot on that natural things make a tank look wonderful - check out our Tank of the Month competition threads if you need convincing! Plants don't affect pH, but they do help to keep nitrate down. In a VERY heavily planted tank, nitrate levels can be 0ppm, although most mature tanks tend to run at about 10-20ppm above the tap water level. Wood can reduce pH, but only in soft water. In hard water, the dissolved minerals keep the pH where it is (this is called buffering). I don't think you'll find any experienced aquarist anywhere that recommends trying to alter your pH, which will be somewhere between 6 and 8. Lower than 7 is acidic water, and higher is alkaline.
 
You need to find out which level yours is. Generally, alkaline fish don't do well in acidic water, whereas acidic fish can survive well in alkaline water - don't ask me why, it's something to do with osmotic regulation, but I can never remember exactly what.
 
Others have given you the heads-up on fishless cycling - and I'm not going to argue with them!
 
Whilst you're waiting for your tank to cycle (cos you're gonna go fishless

), take the opportunity to browse around your local fish shops (us lazy wossnames here refer to them as LFS), make a note of the fish that appeal to you, and then post a list up on the forum. We can then advise you on what works, what doesn't, perhaps some alternatives to think about.
 
And lastly. WELCOME!!

haha thanks for correcting me  
 
am i right in saying live plants also reduce algae a lot too... from personal experience it reduces it by an enormous amount 

 

[the_lock_man]

Plants vs algae is one of fishkeeping's perennial issues, there are a lot of factors to get right.
 
With the correct balance of light, nutrients and CO2, healthy plants will out-compete algae for food. If anything is out of balance, the algae win.

 

[JayP]

Again thanks for the comments, I've already put plastic plants into the tank. I think real plants could be an avenue I'd explore once I was more confident however that may be a step too far me initially.

Can I just clarify, the initial two products I refer to above where explained to me that these would make the water safe and state that they prevent fish loss and make aquariums safe for fish after 48 hours? Do these products not contain any ammonia? Surely if they are selling products like this they have to work? I was advised my tank would be ready for several small fish after two/ three days if I used these products?

Has this been false information, have I spent money on a product that does not do what it says on the tin?

 

[ReddSamurai]

i wouldnt say its false information, like previously said there's 2 ways to cycle a tank (fishless and fish-in)
 
they would help for a fish-in cycle but not for a fishless cycle
 
and like previously mentioned the majority of people here recommend a fishless cycle.
 
the two products do how ever come in useful in the future... water changes, changing filter media and when adding new fish
 
 
...again correct me if im wrong, ive been working with fresh water fish for 5 years and have had a tank for 4 months and im still learning

 

[fluttermoth]

I haven't actually seen either of those particular products. but I assume that one is a dechlorinator and the other is supposed to contain live (or dormant) bacteria to kick start the cycle; in practice the bacteria are nearly always dead.
 
Many people have tried these products and very few of them work, we have a few members here who swear by Dr Tim's One and Only, which (allegedly!) does contain live bacteria. They certainly don't contain normally ammonia; there is one that does; Waterlife's Biomature, but that's used to do a full, fishless cycle.
 
I don't know how, exactly, they get away with this from a marketing point of view; I suspect it's as simple as blaming the user, rather than the product, if it doesn't work.

 

[JayP]

Ok so if I decide to go for a fish less cycle should I really be emptying the tank and starting over again? Only adding ammonia?

I assume the products I've bought and put into the tank are for a fish in cycle?

 

[the_lock_man]

Nutrafin Aqua-Care is a multi-pack containing Aqua Plus, Cycle and Waste Control.
 
Aqua Plus is a dechlorinator, you definitely need that, whether you're doing fish-in or fishless.
 
Cycle is the bacteria-in-a-bottle product, supposedly for fish-in cycling.
 
Waste Control supposedly "eats" the sludge and detritus - debatable value, but basically used on an ongoing basis.
 
I don't see any need to empty the tank, just start adding the ammonia. Since you already have Cycle, you may as well use that as well, it may make a difference, it may not. If you have any friends with tanks, see if you can swap some of their mature filter media for some of your new stuff. It will help kickstart your cycling process.

 

[fluttermoth]

No, you don't need to empty the tank and start over. Just get hold of some ammonia, which can be tricky in shops; it can be used in explosives, apparently, but Homebase and Robert Dyas usually have it, or you can get on ebay and Amazon.
 
Yes, the products you have are for fish-in cycles; no shops or manufacturers promote fishless cycles; not enough money in it for them

 

[JayP]

Ok thanks very much again folks. Getting my head around things now! Obviously if you were to add fish, they would create the ammonia through their waste however they would have to live the the ammonia and nitrite spikes which could kill them?

If I add ammonia, the cycle carries itself out however you have no risk of losing any fish?

I think I'm getting there!!!

 

[the_lock_man]

Ok thanks very much again folks. Getting my head around things now! Obviously if you were to add fish, they would create the ammonia through their waste however they would have to live the the ammonia and nitrite spikes which could kill them?

If I add ammonia, the cycle carries itself out however you have no risk of losing any fish?

I think I'm getting there!!!

 
Spot on.

 

[JayP]

Ok it's a no brainer then! Ill get myself to the shops and try and source some ammonia.

Can I ask how much I would need to put in? How often?

Does it make any difference if I have the light unit on or not?

Also how often should I be carrying out a slight water change at the moment?

Thanks for all you help, I feel I know where I stand with things now

 

[fluttermoth]

You will need to get some test kits so you can monitor the amount of ammonia, and later nitrite. I would recommend you get one of the 'master' test kits, that also do nitrate and pH, as nitrate can get very high and stall a cycle in it's later stages, and so can a low pH. Most people here use the API ones, but there are other makes (Nutrafin, Salifert); just avoid the paper strips as they can be inaccurate, and many don't test for ammonia.
 
We have a calculator here; http/www.fishforums.net/aquarium-calculator.htm which you can use to work out how much ammonia to add; but I suggest that you go for only 2 or 3PPM; the recommended 5PPM is a bit high, according to the very newest thinking.
 
You add the ammonia, and test daily until it starts to drop, then top it up.
 
You don't need to do any water changes at all during the early stages, only later on in the cycle if you do get a large build up of nitrate or dropping of pH The lights make no difference, but if you have no live plants it's better to leave the lights off, as you might encourage a lot of algal growth with them on.

 

[JayP]

Great advice! Thank you. I had a quick look online for ammonia from a few local stores to no avail. Would you be able to post a link to a similar item I would need? I take it it'll be a water based product I would need? The only thing I could see was plant food ammonia from B and Q!?!

 

[the_lock_man]

No, it's not that.
 
Homebase certainly don't list the stuff I used, but if you pop in, they may still have it in the household cleaning section. You could also try your local independant hardware store for the Kleenoff Household Ammonia
 
If not, Amazon or Ebay.