New And I Did It All Wrong...

[OhMyFish]

I have been unable to find a water hardness liquid test kit locally. On-line, I can only find multi-kits--way too expensive. Does the test kit have to be for an aquarium or can I just find any water hardness test kit?

I know the test strips aren't very accurate but would assume they give some indication. So...

If my tap water is 150 gh and 80 kh, what does that mean?

If the tank water is 150 gh and 0 kh, what does that mean?

 

[Mr Bliss]

If my tap water is 150 gh and 80 kh, what does that mean?

If the tank water is 150 gh and 0 kh, what does that mean?[/font][/size][/color]

It means your carbonate hardness drops from 80 (or 4 dKH) to 0 pretty fast. KH is a measurement of carbonate and bicarbonate in the water; certain plants and bacteria (including the bacteria that deal with ammonia and nitrite) feed on this stuff, so your KH will always naturally decline. In your case this happens extremely fast, though, and I have no idea why. Maybe it's because there's a lot of stuff decomposing inside the UGF, promoting heavy bacterial growth, or maybe your water company adds something to the water that renders these tests invalid.

The general hardness (GH) stays the same in your tank which is typical; GH most often either stays fairly stable or rises slightly over time. GH has no bearing on your pH.

 

[OhMyFish]

Thanks, Mr Bliss. Although your response raises another question...if there was a lot of bacteria growing, the ammonia level would remain at 0, wouldn't it? The ammonia level rises over the course of 24-48 hours.

This morning's tests were ammonia 0, ph 6.6 (a drop from 7.3 in less than 24 hours). I've added more baking soda.

I know a couple of people who work at our water company...although in administrative positions. I've sent off one email asking for information so perhaps I'll learn something more about our tap water.

 

[Mr Bliss]

My guess is that the bacteria are still recovering from the super-low pH where they were unable to reproduce much, if at all. They're multiplying but haven't yet reached a point where they can handle all of the ammonia. As they multiply, they consume bicarbonate and soften the KH. These bacteria don't perform optimally in acidic water, so as the pH drops their activity decreases and ammonia levels rise. This would explain the simultaneous pH drop and ammonia increase that you see over 48 hours.

Undergravel filters are also excellent homes for other kinds of bacteria that have nothing to do with nitrification. I don't know how big a fraction of them would be autotrophic (and therefore use bicarbonate), but they must play a role too.

But this is pure conjecture at this point and I doubt it can explain all of what's going on with your KH and pH. I've worked at a LFS, and kept and helped other people with many tanks in my life, but I've never seen KH just dissipate from 4 to 0 like that (we have KH 3 - 4 (60 - 80 ppm) out of the tap too), and apparently the coral sand isn't doing much for you which is strange too.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yeah i have to say i'm stumped too, i'd suggest you pop a post up in the scientific section and see if you can catch the attention of one of the guys there who is a bit more sciency than us and may be able to find an answer or soemthing else to test!

 

[waterdrop]

I have been unable to find a water hardness liquid test kit locally. On-line, I can only find multi-kits--way too expensive. Does the test kit have to be for an aquarium or can I just find any water hardness test kit?

I know the test strips aren't very accurate but would assume they give some indication. So...

If my tap water is 150 gh and 80 kh, what does that mean?

If the tank water is 150 gh and 0 kh, what does that mean?

Finding hardness tests locally is very, very rare unless you happen to have a very good LFS. The Tetratec KH test I use is simply a very small bottle and small test tube and didn't cost much at all. The API GH/KH test is also a pretty small kit and not much expense I believe. I would assume Drs.Foster or AquariumGuys or many of the usual online places would have these.

I still think our best avenue to explore here is simply that the water is too soft and not enough has been done yet and enough time given to raise the hardness to the point where several good things should happen: After its been raised enough, there will be enough bicarbonates for the bacteria, the pH will be more stable and closer to the 8.0-8.4 that is ideal for these bacteria and given some more time, the bacteria will come out of the stall they are in because of the low pH.

I think it makes perfect sense that this has been a difficult case because there are fish in there and we've all tried to raise KH and pH slowly, which makes sense but its just not been raised enough in as non-fluctuating a manner as needed. I also agree that the undergravel filter is potentially greatly complicating things. It can be very difficult to get below the gravel and perform the "debris suckouts" that are needed frequently for those trays.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[pippoodle]

sorry you've been having so much trouble but you have been doing really well fighting to keep your fish alive and its so difficult when you have kids they get more attatched to the fish .

As for in tank filters i use a hagen elite stingray they are really easy to use and go inside the tank
they are available in the USA and come in 3 sizes : for example the stingray 10 will do upto a 10 gallon tank they are also very quiet

here's a link <a href="http/cgi.ebay.com/HAGEN-ELITE-STINGRAY-1...p3286.m20.l1116" target="_blank">http/cgi.ebay.com/HAGEN-ELITE-STINGRAY-1...p3286.m20.l1116</a>


might help you

good luck and take care

Sarah xx

 

[OhMyFish]

The following is a response from an engineer who works closely with the filtration department at our local water company:

“This is not a problem with our water at all. We actually add alkalinity (what they are referring to as KH, or carbonate hardness) and hardness in the form of lime to our water at both [plant locations] to stabilize and buffer it (this is for corrosion control purposes). There is nothing that we add to the water after lime addition that would significantly impact the alkalinity or hardness in the distributed water.

The problem they are having is due to the fact that alkalinity is normally consumed and pH decreases in fish tanks due to a number of factors: 1) the fish release ammonia in their waste, which is converted through bacterial oxidation to nitrate (nitrification) by a healthy aquarium's fauna, and this consumes a significant amount of alkalinity; 2) the fish respirate (as living animals do) and release carbon dioxide in the process, which drives the pH down; and 3) the equilibration of the water with carbon dioxide in the air also drives the pH down somewhat. So it is normal (and unavoidable) for the pH and alkalinity levels to go down in an aquarium, and if you have enough fish or your aquarium sand is not cleaned well (thus resulting in increased nitrification), pH and alkalinity can go down very quickly. Thus, you will need to periodically add alkalinity/pH adjusting chemicals as the fish continue the natural processes of producing ammonia and respiration. We have an aquarium at home, and I have found that the best thing to do is to occasionally add baking soda as Ms. [OhMyFish] mentioned below (or you can periodically use pH adjusting chemicals from the fish store, but baking soda is a lot cheaper).”

Correct me if I'm going in the wrong direction but this tells me two things...1) I'm going to continue riding this merry-go-round unless I start over with a non-undergravel filter (PetCo will take back my remaining 3 fish)...and 2) the pH will always have to be monitored regularly but probably not daily if there's a non-undergravel filter being used.

 

[waterdrop]

Well that's really unusual to find a water engineer who puts it all so nicely into the same language we use here on TFF. He just restated all the things we've gone over here and in our scientific section many times. One of the things really good coming from you getting his comments is that he's confirming they are not having to put any other extras in. And hes confirming that your water is clearly quite soft.

Now as for your response, I would not have jumped so strongly on the undergravel filter as the thing to focus on. I still think that's a complicating factor but its not the cure-all for the "alkalinity" situation. One thing that may not be clear to you from his statements is that it still stands that the tank processes will drive the pH downward even more during cycling than later when cycling is effectively over. I really think it will not be as bad later, although your case is still extreme enough that I expect you to be a permanent crushed coral user. In my own case I had to put 2 and even 3 teaspoon of baking soda back in each time I did a 70% water change during fishless cycling of my 28g, in order to get the KH and pH up higher for bacterial promotion. But after I cycled, I stopped using any baking soda and things have been fine even though my water is quite soft.

In your case I think in the long run you could use quite a lot more crushed coral to acheive a better KH and pH that stays long term. Using baking soda to quickly bounce the these factors up and then have them fall right back down will get old really fast. Its frustrating because the baking soda is great in giving you such instant feedback and the coral is so painfully slow, but I really think, especially now that we've heard from the water authority, that a combo of more baking soda and more crushed coral as an immediate measure to try to continue to get better bacterial growth conditions and better tank stability, and then after the cycling to ease off the baking soda and keep slowly increasing and testing the crushed coral would work as a plan.

In the medium future it would make a lot of sense to be thinking about replacing the UG with a cannister filter, but that's expensive and theortically the UG should be building up a nice biofilter out of your gravel substrate here before long.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OhMyFish]

waterdrop...I was going to say the same thing when I typed the response--the engineer said the same thing most have said on this board...you'all must know your stuff, eh?

I pick on the under gravel filter because I think it really isn't "cleaning" the gravel and debris in the water as fast as another type filter would--or at least, that's what I understand. Every time I do a water change, the debris that floats in the water during and afterward is amazing. If I vacuum the gravel, I take away any bacteria that might be growing. I no longer expect the tank to have "clear" water. When it does, I've learned that the ammonia level is high (at least .5).

This time of year, I'm a bit busier than normal. Thus, the tank had no attention (other than to make sure the fish were alive) since I last posted. It has been 2 1/2 days since I took any readings and 3 days since I did a 75% water change. This afternoon's readings were ammonia .5 and pH 7.4. (I think not bad for 3 days without changing the water although 2 1/2 days ago I added 1/2 t. baking soda). Anyway...we fed the fish and waited 2 hours before doing a 70% water change, adding 1/2 t. baking soda, some more crushed coral and 10 ml liquid bacteria (it can't hurt but it might help).

It will be another 3-4 days before I will have sufficient time to attend to the tank again. I had hoped the tank would be self-sustaining by now, with minimal attention. When will this tank ever finish cycling? At one point, the ammonia was 0, the nitrites began to appear then both the ammonia and nitrites were 0 and the nitrates began to appear (very low)...then I found out the pH was extraordinarily low...and the cycle begins again...

 

[waterdrop]

Good morning OMF , always good to discuss things because your message this morning makes me think of something new to talk about: undergravel filter maintenance. This sentence: "If I vacuum the gravel, I take away any bacteria that might be growing." should be questioned I believe. My understanding is that gravel debris and debris under the grid of an undergravel filter should -not- be a significant contributor to the overall population of the beneficial bacteria and in contrast, constitutes a large bulk of decaying material available to cause excess ammonia spikes. The two beneficial species should adhere very, very tightly to the surfaces of the gravel and cause it to look stained black and/or brown/yellow with a UG filter.

So what I'm saying is that my image of how a UG works is that you are supposed to have your entire substrate of gravel, which forms a very nice "filter tray" of sorts and its all stained with beneficial bacteria which are getting ammonia and oxygen as the water is pulled downward through the gravel. The gravel will serve as a mechanical filter and catch debris but this should be cleared out as much as possible. The trickiest part is that more of this debris will be pulled down under the grids of the UG filter and can collect in large masses there. This is very bad as it can unleash large amounts of ammonia and nitrate when stirred up.

I have actually read a post somewhere here on TFF where one of the experienced aquarists described that it was good to brush aside all the gravel from an area on top of one of the UG plates and press the gravel cleaning tube right up against it and literally suck out all the debris from under the filter.

-Now-, I admit that I don't know if there are better guidelines here on TFF about this subject. I would really like it if Colin or oldman47 or a moderator or any other members with UG info would weigh in here! With regular filters we recommend not disturbing the debris as much during the cycling periods, but in their case the debris will remain trapped and not have a chance to disburse out into the tank water like it can with a UG. I also don't know how one should judge the periods between these "clean-outs" with a UG. Question is, is weekly enough? Should it be more? Anyway OMF, until we hear otherwise, it would be better in my judgement to attempt to get the gravel and UG more cleaned out! (OH, I think I remember that the advice might have been to put the skinny end of siphon hose right on the UG gridplate (without the wide gravel cleaner attached) as that would have a more concentrated suction to pull from under the grid!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OhMyFish]

I haven't disappeard...just that this time of year is so extremely busy. An update...

All three fish (1 x-ray, 1 neon, 1 silver-tipped tetras) remain alive and are still only being fed every 3rd day.

Over the past 3 weeks, we've been able to decrease the water changes to now once a week and then only doing 50%. I haven't added baking soda for at least 10 days and the pH has remained very constant at 7.4. There is still crushed coral in the tank but I've not added more since I stopped adding baking soda.

A week ago, the ammonia was at .5. After a 50% water change, no ammonia has reappeared. Nitrite appeared about 5 days ago and has remained constant at .25. (This afternoon will be the first opportunity we will have to change the water in order to reduce the nitrite.) Nitrate remains at 5.

Algae is present in the tank. Should I get an algae eater? If so, what kind? We don't want an aggressive one.

I will post a separate message for information regarding the under gravel filter.

Many thanks for everyone's help. Without having to (or even being able to) do frequent water changes, it has gotten easier.

 

[waterdrop]

Good to hear from you OMF! Your stats sound pretty good for your fish-in cycle. Hope your DH still feels some interest and is involved. Hopefully the biofilms in that gravel substrate will be slowly getting up to the levels they need to be.

~~waterdrop~~
ps. forgot to say that some "otos" might be good algae eaters for you, a few months after the cycle finishes.

 

[OhMyFish]

Thanks for such a quick reply, water drop. So...when I finally do get an algae eater, he'll clean up the tank? I do hate the appearance of the algae growth.

Ah...DS is so looking forward to adding a fish...even if only one! Although it's hard to predict...especially with this tank!...how much longer do you think it will be before a fish can be added. DS is participating in the care of the fish and as he sees progress, his interest is increasing.

 

[waterdrop]

You just have to see how much an algae eater will help by getting them and trying it. Prior to getting them you should look the species up on TFF and study how to care for them, especially in terms of feeding them if they don't like your particular algae or once its gone. I'm not an expert on it.

Prior to getting them, algae cleaning should be a part of your tank cleans. I use a coarse sponge to clean all my interior glass surfaces just prior to my weekly water change. Make sure gravel doesn't get trapped in the sponge because it can scratch the glass. You can take decorations out and clean them with an old but clean toothbrush under the tap, just be careful not to scrape off all the paint if your son has any painted ones. Plant leaves can sometimes be cleaned if you are extremely patient and gentle with your sponge and/or fingers. Doing all this just prior to the siphon-off of the water change ensures that more of it will get sucked out during the change.

Algae and a large and difficult topic that goes on constantly over in the planted section. A good beginner approach with light is 4 hours morning, 4 hours evening using timers so that you have light during your favorite viewing periods but so that there is a "siesta" from light and the algae don't get it during mid-day. Really though, algae is triggered by stir-ups of ammonia from the gravel (yes, gravel cleans can indeed be triggers for algae, ugh!, have no easy answer) and by uneven and low CO2 levels (again, too big a topic for me to cover here.)

OMF, remind us of any previous advice you've been following about gravel/UG cleaning for your fish-in cycle (?)

~~waterdrop~~