New 64l Tank...a Few Problems

[waynelle]

Hi everyone, this is quite a long one so will apologise in advance...

Cycle...

Me and my partner got a 64 litre Fish Box at the end of August from Pets at Home. As soon as we got home we set it up, we added the gravel and decor straight away along with the water. We treated in by adding the correct dosage of Filter Start which we got with the tank, we also added (as advised by a number of people) quarter of a cup of urine to the tank, as this is full of ammonia and really helps the tank come along. The following day the water went very cloudy, we were told just to be patient with it, and 8 days later the water was clear again, the PH was fine, we didn't check the ammonia etc as we didn't have the right equipment.

Adding Fish...

After a few days we added our 1st fish which were 3 Male Guppies as we were told that these are quite hardy fish and they were fine in there, after a couple more days we added 1 Angel Fish and a Red Honey Gourami and all seemed fine, after a few days we then done a 25% water change and cleaned the gravel using our Syphon, PH was still fine. The following day we bought 8 neon tetra's (unaware that the Angel Fish would eat them, oops)
The following day, we woke up to only 6 Neon Tetra's, 2 were missing, they were nowhere to be seen, this is when we found out about Angel Fish eating Neon's so we assumed that they had been eaten. We then added 1 Female Black Molly, 1 Male Molly and a Female Fighter (yes I know this seems like a lot of fish in such a short space of time but we are both new to this and thought it would be fine). Straight away the Fighter seemed to be struggling, she lost all her colour and wasn't very active at all. We put it down to the stress of being moved in to a different tank, then the day after we found a Neon hanging from our filter, it seems that the Angel didn't eat it after all, it had been sucked in to the filter and after a few days spat back out, so we removed it straight away and done a little water change and cleaned the inside of the filter in the tank water. We can only assume that the other Neon had been eaten as that is still nowhere to be seen.

Problems start...

The Fighter continued to go down hill, wasn't settling at all and it wasn't eating, just hanging around the top of the tank hiding behind the filter. We took a sample of our water to our LFS (Pets at Home) and they tested the ammonia which was way too high, with a reading between 6-8 along with the nitrite/nitrate!! We done an emergency 50% water change and then the same again the following day as instructed and took it back to the LFS, the readings were still high but better than the last time so we done yet another 50% water change, removed all the decor and cleaned it (adding Safe Water and Tap Safe everytime) and done another reading, which AGAIN was too high. After this 4 Neon's and our Male Molly had died suddenly, the Molly was great, seemed totally fine but when we got home he had died!! The Female Fighter was still hanging on. After 1 or 2 more 50% water changes the ammonia is still too high!! The Female Fighter eventually died about a week ago. All the other fish are doing fine.

Just got back from our LFS and they have advised to change our filter sponge and replace it with a brand new one as he thinks the neon has damaged the sponge with it decomposing in there, he said this won't do any harm to the fish as this should remove the ammonia. Do you think this is the right thing to do or could we be missing something else??
We've also read that the carbon media isn't necessary and to only use it when needed but the LFS has told us to use it at all times as this helps the water stay crystal clear.

We have the Interpet PF2 Filter. If changing the media is our only option, would it have to be the same stuff we use or could we use Filter Floss? As we have some of that.

Everything we have done hasn't made a difference at all, I think changing the media is the only thing to do but wanted a second opinion as I know there are many experts on here. Wanted to give as much detail as possible to answer any questions

Thanks

 

[shane87]

hello, im pretty new to keeping fish but i think the problem was addin way to many fish for such a small tank in a short amount of space and the angel will need to be rehomed as it will grow to big for the tank, when i ran in to problems with high ammonia i did a 50% water change every day ( other ppl may have different opinions, and the fact my tank is 200litres so its a lot of work) until the ammonia was down to 0.5ppm then the next day i looked the filter must of been able to convert that small amount of ammonia,

no fish does well against high ammonia so that mayb why your poor fighter wasnt her self

 

[waynelle]

Sorry, forgot to mention that we re-homed the Angel lol. Took it to our LFS.

So how many days did it take after doing water changes everyday?

 

[AdAndrews]

The problem is that you havnt cycled the tank(or filter to be precise) cycling takes about 6 weeks and requires an ammonia source constantly over that time to allow bacteria that process ammonia-nitrite-nitrate to form and grow, thus when you brought your fish their waste couldnt be processed as you had inefficiant ammounts of bacteria in your filter, so basically you poisoned them, causing them stress and illness.
Read up on fishless cycling in the new to the hobby section.

EDIT: NEVER BELIVE ANYTHING A FISH SHOP TELLS YOU, DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.

 

[shane87]

Sorry, forgot to mention that we re-homed the Angel lol. Took it to our LFS.

So how many days did it take after doing water changes everyday?

suprisingly it only took about 5 days worth of doin 50% water changes

 

[waynelle]

The problem is that you havnt cycled the tank(or filter to be precise) cycling takes about 6 weeks and requires an ammonia source constantly over that time to allow bacteria that process ammonia-nitrite-nitrate to form and grow, thus when you brought your fish their waste couldnt be processed as you had inefficiant ammounts of bacteria in your filter, so basically you poisoned them, causing them stress and illness.
Read up on fishless cycling in the new to the hobby section.

EDIT: NEVER BELIVE ANYTHING A FISH SHOP TELLS YOU, DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.

Well I thought that adding fish would help, giving the filter something to fight? Urine is full of ammonia so shouldnt that of helped?

Well we have doubts about the advice given off the LFS which is why we came on here

Sorry, forgot to mention that we re-homed the Angel lol. Took it to our LFS.

So how many days did it take after doing water changes everyday?

suprisingly it only took about 5 days worth of doin 50% water changes

WOW!! That is a lot. I may give that a go then.

Thanks

 

[AdAndrews]

Im not sure Urine would work, and have never really heard of anyone on here using it to cycle, but it may have had a too high concentration of ammonia, 10ppm and over caused a different type of bacteria to grow(not the one you want) and anyway it needs to continue over a longer period of time, it takes about 3 days for the bacteria to appear, and then once it has it needs to be continually "fed" to be able to grow into a big enough colony to process your fishes waste.

EDIT: Yes the fish waste would "give the filter something to fight" as they do produce waste=ammonia, however what you DONT want is the fish to be subjected to ammonia-nitrite and high nitrates as this will stress the fish and poison them, weakening their immune system, causing disease and death.

Adam

 

[Tory]

The problem is that you havnt cycled the tank(or filter to be precise) cycling takes about 6 weeks and requires an ammonia source constantly over that time to allow bacteria that process ammonia-nitrite-nitrate to form and grow, thus when you brought your fish their waste couldnt be processed as you had inefficiant ammounts of bacteria in your filter, so basically you poisoned them, causing them stress and illness.
Read up on fishless cycling in the new to the hobby section.

EDIT: NEVER BELIVE ANYTHING A FISH SHOP TELLS YOU, DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.

Agreed, I was in the middle of writing this myself. I know you said suprisingly it only took a few days with 50% changes, but its more complicated than that, I know you got your water tested, but it was only the 50* changes that did that, without going through the full nitrogen cycle, meaning that there has been a massive ammonia spike when you added the fish - going through a fish-in-cycle, which although many people do, there were a bit too many fish causing a massive bio load to the filter which it couldnt process quick enough.

 

[MewMew42]

im sorry youve had such a bad time!! =[

but what is left in your tank right now?

 

[Curiosity101]

A few notes...

The reason the fish died was due to ammonia poisoning.

Levels of Ammonia and Nitrite over 0.25ppm cause permanent and lasting damage.

The bit of your tank that cycles is the filter. This is because bacteria need a consistent supply of ammonia and oxygen. Alot of water passes through the filter refreshing the ammonia and oxygen supply to bacteria constantly.

When you replace a filter pad. You remove all of the bacteria on it. This isn't a good thing. Only ever replace pads once they are falling apart. And even then only replace half the pads at any one time. If the filter only have one pad, then cut it in half with some scissors now, then do the same with the new pad...and only replace half.

Only clean the filter when the flow is impeded, to clean take some water out of the tank, and swish the filter pad around in this water to remove a large percentage of the debris.

Activated carbon isn't necessary all of the time. It should only really be used at the end of a course of medication (to remove traces of the medication which is left), or if you want to remove tannins from the water. It is normally only active + working for 3 days - 1 week.

Cycling - Is the process of culturing enough bacteria to cope with 'x' amount of fish waste. When we do a fishless cycle here on TFF we recommend cycling the filter to cope with 5ppm of ammonia as this basically ensures that you can add 80% of your final fish stock all in one go. Final fish stock goes by the inch per US gal rule for new fish keepers. So a 65l tank is 17 US Gal. You therefore want to aim for 17" of small bodied fish, going by their adult size. Example being Neons grow to 1", but you may buy them at around 0.5"...it is the 1" size that should be counted towards the final stock.
An example 17" (ish) stocking would be
6 x Neon Tetra
2 x Honey Gourami
4 x Sterbai Cory


Neon Tetras - Wont normally live through the cycling period. And often wont survive in immature tanks (less than 6 months old). They are very sensitive fish.

Urine - Bad idea...urine is sterile. It is sterile for a reason. It may contain ammonia, but it also contains plenty of chemicals that kill bacteria. If you wanted to undergo a fishless cycle you are best buying some household ammonia from somewhere such as boots or homebase.

Test Kit - GET ONE! Liquid API Master Test kit... £18 from ebay. Lasts over a year. Helps you know what's going on in your tank and keep your fish safe. Test strips are to be avoided like the plague...they're very inaccurate and much more expensive per test in comparison to the liquid kit I recommended.

Oh and to make the point again....DO NOT TRUST FISH SHOPS ANYMORE lol. Just incase you missed it.

I hope I've covered most of the queries from the original post, and I know I've basically repeated some info from above...so sorry about that.

Any other questions?

Oh and I was wondering what you current fish stock is now??

 

[Seriz]

Yes I agree with all of the above, cycling a tank is vital if you want to keep fish in it. Please don't add more fish yet. You are effectively in the process of dong a fish-in cycle which is one way of doing it (most aquarists on this site would perform a fishless cycle but this way is arguably fine too). Unfortunately you're learning about ammonia and nitrites the hard way but no more of your fish need die during the cycling process. If you're willing to test your water daily and properly carry out all necessary water changes until the ammonia and nitrite levels drop then you will soon have a healthy aquarium.
good luck
Seriz

 

[Floyds mum]

I started off with this fish tank - a great tank.
I added a few guppy fry after a few days (not realising i had to cycle the tank) and left them there for a week or two then added 2 pregnant guppies and let them have their fry then removed them, never had any problems. You did maybe add too many fish at once but hope you get it sorted and DONT remove the sponge from the filter rinse it in old tank water to get rid of any yucky stuff then put it back in.

 

[Assaye]

Heya, and welcome to the world of fishkeeping.

If the ammonia is above 0.25, do a water change (start with 50%). Test again after an hour, and if still high, do another one. Yes, water changes can stress fish, but high ammonia and nitrites do way more damage. Do water changes back to back until you get it under 0.25 for both, and ideally it should be zero. Leave it for the rest of the day. The next day (or even that evening if you did all of this in the morning), test again and do water changes as necessary. You need to keep the ammonia and the nitrites RIGHT down. P@H might recommend one water change every 2-3 days, but if you want your fish to live, you need to do them way more frequently than that.

I urge you to buy your own test kits for ammonia and nitrite so that you can sort this problem properly and not just whenever you can get to P@H to get your water tested. Keeping track of these chemicals is essential to keep your fish alive.

Do NOT replace your filter pad. Even if the neon decayed a bit in there, you can get most of the gunk out by washing the sponge in TANK (not tap) water. This will preseve the vital bacteria in your filter that process the ammonia and nitrites. Changing the sponge will put you back to square one, and the massive ammounts of ammonia and nitrites in the tank are most likely to have been produced by fish waste and not one decaying neon tetra, although this won't have helped. As you are worried about bits of decaying neon, wash your filter, but you don't need to wash your filter sponge unless the filters water flow drops, and even then, do it gently. You need those bacteria alive and well. Changing the filter pad will NOT help. You only need to change them when they are disintegrating.

What you are now experiencing in a fish-in cycle. This is when the bacteria develop in the filter with the aid of fish waste (they eat the stuff, yum yum, and make it safer), and when you do this process with the fish in the tank. As I mentioned before, the way to minimise this danger, keep your fish and get your filter cycled is to keep doing those water changes. Another option is to remove the fish (take them back or see if P@H will hold them for you) and cycle your filter without the fish. This is done by manually adding ammonia to the tank and keeping track of the readings, waiting until it goes from 5 ppm to 0 on both ammonia and nirtrite overnight. Plenty of resources on how to do this online. This method will minimise the danger to your fish and get your tank to the point where you can add all your fish straight back in.

As for the carbon - carbon stops being useful after having been in the tank for only a few days. After that point, it just becomes another sponge. Carbon is good for removing spills (such as when someone knocks cola into their tank) and it removes other chemicals like medications. You don't need it all the time. In order to keep your water clear, it is enough to keep the tank clean, have a working filter that will suck up particles of muck and to do weekly water changes WHEN your filter is cycled. When you change the water, you only need to do about 30% at a time.

Btw - guppys are NOT hardy fish. They are too overbred. You'd have been better off starting with danios for a fish-in cycle.

 

[JustKia]

Totally agreed with Curiosity.
There's a couple links in my siggie.
The fishless cycle is the best method to begin with. If you can (temporarily?) rehome your fish to a mature tank then this would be the best option to go with for now.
Otherwise you're in a fish-in cycle and looking at a lot of hard work.
I did a fish-in cycle (on purpose, as we were prepared to do lots of water changes and tests).
It took about a week of twice daily 50%+ water changes, 2 more weeks of once daily 50% and a couple weeks (thereabouts) of once daily 25% changes, then it was a couple times a week then once a week. As soon as there was a trace amount of ammonia we water changed - this didn't mean the filter bacs went without, we were just removing the ammonia (and other wastes) that were above what the filter could handle at the time - the excess if you like.
The fish-in cycle link in my siggie is very informative and I found it a great help in knowing what to do.

Another thing you could do is see if there is anyone near you who can donate some mature media from their filter for you to speed up the process and give you a kick start.

 

[waynelle]

Heya, and welcome to the world of fishkeeping.

I work at P@H and I urge you to take everything they say with a pinch of salt. If the ammonia is above 0.25, do a water change (start with 50%). Test again after an hour, and if still high, do another one. Yes, water changes can stress fish, but high ammonia and nitrites do way more damage. Do water changes back to back until you get it under 0.25 for both, and ideally it should be zero. Leave it for the rest of the day. The next day (or even that evening if you did all of this in the morning), test again and do water changes as necessary. You need to keep the ammonia and the nitrites RIGHT down. P@H might recommend one water change every 2-3 days, but if you want your fish to live, you need to do them way more frequently than that.

I urge you to buy your own test kits for ammonia and nitrite so that you can sort this problem properly and not just whenever you can get to P@H to get your water tested. Keeping track of these chemicals is essential to keep your fish alive.

Do NOT replace your filter pad. Even if the neon decayed a bit in there, you can get most of the gunk out by washing the sponge in TANK (not tap) water. This will preseve the vital bacteria in your filter that process the ammonia and nitrites. Changing the sponge will put you back to square one, and the massive ammounts of ammonia and nitrites in the tank are most likely to have been produced by fish waste and not one decaying neon tetra, although this won't have helped. As you are worried about bits of decaying neon, wash your filter, but you don't need to wash your filter sponge unless the filters water flow drops, and even then, do it gently. You need those bacteria alive and well. Changing the filter pad will NOT help. You only need to change them when they are disintegrating.

What you are now experiencing in a fish-in cycle. This is when the bacteria develop in the filter with the aid of fish waste (they eat the stuff, yum yum, and make it safer), and when you do this process with the fish in the tank. It's P@H policy to recommend this method, but it is very, very dangerous for your fish. As I mentioned before, the way to minimise this danger, keep your fish and get your filter cycled is to keep doing those water changes. Another option is to remove the fish (take them back or see if P@H will hold them for you) and cycle your filter without the fish. This is done by manually adding ammonia to the tank and keeping track of the readings, waiting until it goes from 5 ppm to 0 on both ammonia and nirtrite overnight. Plenty of resources on how to do this online. This method will minimise the danger to your fish and get your tank to the point where you can add all your fish straight back in.

As for the carbon - carbon stops being useful after having been in the tank for only a few days. After that point, it just becomes another sponge. Carbon is good for removing spills (such as when someone knocks cola into their tank) and it removes other chemicals like medications. You don't need it all the time. In order to keep your water clear, it is enough to keep the tank clean, have a working filter that will suck up particles of muck and to do weekly water changes WHEN your filter is cycled. When you change the water, you only need to do about 30% at a time.

Btw - guppys are NOT hardy fish. They are too overbred. You'd have been better off starting with danios for a fish-in cycle. P@H should have known this and I'm pretty annoyed they didn't advise you accordingly.

Thanks very much for your detailed reply.
I am starting to realise now that P@H dont always have the fish's best interests at heart, just thinking about the money I reckon so they're telling us to replace everything as they know it will make them money!

We have been to another fish shop this morning, a little local one and he done a water test and the ammonia is reading in between 1.2 - 2.0 so he advised us to do little water changes every day as the tank is still at the beginning of its cycle. All the other tests came up fine, its just the ammonia.

We have bought new carbon as the guy in the shop said this will help break down the ammonia, as at the moment we don't have any in.

Again, than you for your reply