New 2nd tank. 50 gallon 200 litre. Need some advice..

[Yande]

Hi All, this is my second tank.
It's 1.2m Long x .35m Wide x .5m High.
Around 4' Long x 1.1ft wide x 1.6ft High.
Aprrox 200 L or 50 Gallon.

As it has worked out, I have 2 Cannister filters, which combined (state) that they can service a 200 liter (50G) tank.
If you check my pictures, you can see the setup I thought would work best. Red Arrows show proposed water flow. It is a deep narrow tank, so, to get the water moving, 2 filter outlets, inlets at each end, one on top, one below the water line. Is this crazy or just common sense?
Bubbles are only there to assist with the cycle, and inlet and outlets are only positioned temporarily at the moment. As we live on the Coast, in the country, tomorrow we are going searching for some freshwater driftwood to assist in decreasing the Ph, which is around 7.6 and for the aesthetics. Perhaps a rock or two also. We have Granite near by. From which the Sydney Harbour bridge was actually built from. Suitable?

Cannisters are Fluval 106 and a Aquasyncro AE60 both of which I have loaded with Cermedia as well as other filtration mediums. Noth are cheap EBay filters.
To be honest, we have not decided on what fish to add, though are thinking of adding a couple of guppies, (+) to start the tank off. Have a likeing to Angel, Dollar Fish, though have not searched the necessary parameters of each of these. I will come back to ask more.
Chems are pretty well through the roof?? Been using Dr Tims Ammonia and Stability to make the cycle happen. Fishless.
Any advice on my bi-filtration set up would be appreciated, also, with regards the chems, considering the pic, when would you advise adding fish? Couple of days?
We all got to start somewhere. Thanks

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Hi Yande,


#1 - The water flow plan looks good, I used a similar design in a 6 foot long tank. And it circulated it very well (of course, I did use a 200gph water pump to really getting it whipping! ) That's not necessary, but I wanted some extra flow and my species could handle the extra - actually the neon tetras would jump into the outflow of the water pump like it was a treadmill... the entire shoal and just swim against the full strength of the current for minutes at a time. Then, they'd move off and find some other areas to check out.

#2 - The answer to the chemistry question is simple: Not until BOTH the ammonia AND nitrite are reading 0 24 hours after a dose of ammonia. I might add that it is best to use ONLY Dr. Tim's, not to mix this with Stability. Dr. Tim's is the exact strain of bacteria scientifically proven to be the ones we want in our tanks. Stability is... uh, well not those bacteria. Seachem doesn't really share what Stability is, but the directions tell you enough. They suggest adding it multiple times throughout the life of your tank... which indicates its not what you really want. You want the bacteria to come, colonize your tank and grow from there. An additional dose of something like Dr. Tim's should only ever be necessary if you do something to mess up your cycle - (i.e. throw away your filter media, treat gram negative bacterial infection in the tank, etc.) In general, dosing anything 'bacterial' is not necessary if the stuff you dose is the right stuff.

The key is patience. Determine your pH, gH, kH, and use this time to research what you want to keep. I'd advise against guppies and angelfish together, and I'd advise against any 'starter' fish like that. If angelfish are your choice, there are specific details you should follow for how to do it properly.

 

[Yande]

Hi Yande,


#1 - The water flow plan looks good, I used a similar design in a 6 foot long tank. And it circulated it very well (of course, I did use a 200gph water pump to really getting it whipping! ) That's not necessary, but I wanted some extra flow and my species could handle the extra - actually the neon tetras would jump into the outflow of the water pump like it was a treadmill... the entire shoal and just swim against the full strength of the current for minutes at a time. Then, they'd move off and find some other areas to check out.

#2 - The answer to the chemistry question is simple: Not until BOTH the ammonia AND nitrite are reading 0 24 hours after a dose of ammonia. I might add that it is best to use ONLY Dr. Tim's, not to mix this with Stability. Dr. Tim's is the exact strain of bacteria scientifically proven to be the ones we want in our tanks. Stability is... uh, well not those bacteria. Seachem doesn't really share what Stability is, but the directions tell you enough. They suggest adding it multiple times throughout the life of your tank... which indicates its not what you really want. You want the bacteria to come, colonize your tank and grow from there. An additional dose of something like Dr. Tim's should only ever be necessary if you do something to mess up your cycle - (i.e. throw away your filter media, treat gram negative bacterial infection in the tank, etc.) In general, dosing anything 'bacterial' is not necessary if the stuff you dose is the right stuff.

The key is patience. Determine your pH, gH, kH, and use this time to research what you want to keep. I'd advise against guppies and angelfish together, and I'd advise against any 'starter' fish like that. If angelfish are your choice, there are specific details you should follow for how to do it properly.

Thanks so much for your in depth reply EA! Cool, the water flow plan is on the mark. That is my "work in progress" so will continue fitting that out, making it tidy and discreet, until I get to the next step, that is, as you have described, "water parameters!" Will lay off with the "prime" and thanks, for I do understand your reasoning as such, it just makes so much sense.
Definitely not sure what fish to get yet, and also, what fish I can afford!! Wow, I seem to have expensive taste, though, patience, and not wanting to waste money, (the least of my reasoning) we shall start off with something simple.

An aside: I once had a saltwater aquarium, tank, set up on the back deck of a 100' Prawn trawler in Northern Australia. I spent 6 of every 12 months on that boat for 3 years! We'd have Crabs, Gremorra's, tiny dog sharks, prawns and Crayfish all mixed up in that tank. Only the strong survived! We also had the odd Mantis Shrimp, aka Prawn Killer. After seeing a Mantis Shrimp for sale in an Aquarium shop in Sydney last week for $AUD199, I emailed the Skipper and owner of the Company that I previously worked for and told them to change their targeted species from Banana Prawns, to Mantis Shrimps!! Wow, if only I knew what I now know We, (the crew) loved that tank! Never put a snake in it though, we had caught hundreds, of which, apart from one season, where there was a govt sponsored bounty, all were thrown back into the water. That one year, the bounty was $AUD5 per snake, and we caught over 500! It was a survey where Longitude and Latitude were recorded as well as the date and time. In retrospect, amazing times!

 

[DutchMuch]

1- Granite is a no-no... Rocks also usually (not always) make the water harder so that plus your driftwood, no effect in lowering PH anymore if combined. Unless certain stones are used.
2- If you mean hunting for driftwood, like in a lake, I wouldn't take that risk: parasites, unknown bacteria, crawlies... etc list goes on.
3- aren't dollar fish brackish or s/w?

 

[Baker]

The granite is fine as long as it doesn't fizz too much with a vinegar test, or have rust veins/smears all over it. Barring those, just give it a nice scrub, cook it in the oven to kill any possible pests and soak it in water to get all the air out, but again if it shows signs of rust then it's probably too metallic.
As for wild drift wood, most hard woods are fine, you can stuck your thumb nail into the wood and if it cuts easily into the wood then avoid it. Then do a little research on whatever you do find to make sure it's not going to become toxic.
And no silver dollars are not salt water fish

 

[DutchMuch]

And no silver dollars are not salt water fish

Ah ok thank you are they brackish though? pretty sure they are..

 

[eaglesaquarium]

1- Granite is a no-no... Rocks also usually (not always) make the water harder so that plus your driftwood, no effect in lowering PH anymore if combined. Unless certain stones are used.
2- If you mean hunting for driftwood, like in a lake, I wouldn't take that risk: parasites, unknown bacteria, crawlies... etc list goes on.
3- aren't dollar fish brackish or s/w?

I appreciate your interest in helping someone with a question. But, when you don't understand what you are discussing, its best not to answer.

1 - Granite is not a 'no-no'.
https://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Using_Stones_in_an_Aquarium

Granite - entirely safe but can be very heavy so position carefully

Not knowing what type of rock is being used, is a concern for an aquarist, but there are tests that can be done to determine the affect an unknown rock will have on a tank.

2 - Hunting for driftwood is a common practice. Once again, the aquarist needs to be aware of what type of wood they are using, they should sterilize it, but it is not a item that should be completely written off. It is, however, something that should be researched to ensure what type of wood you are using, whether or not it is safe (woods contain a large amount of resin or sap are not a good idea - therefore no 'green' wood either), and steps should be taken to ensure that it is sterile.

3 - Silver dollar tetras are freshwater fish.
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/metynnis-hypsauchen

They do get large and need a large tank, but that is what the OP has... though I'd prefer the tank were a bit larger than this.

 

[Baker]

Well they are indigenous to the upper river areas along the amazon which don't mix with the ocean but it's possible they travel downstream for breeding or maybe seasonally? I don't know that they NEVER travel into brackish waters but they share habitats with things like piranha and pacu and generally spend their time in fresh water rivers

 

[DutchMuch]

https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/brackish-fish.67717/
EA I said in my experience its a no no, as it usually hardens the water and it is very common to carry metals. Its granite... Sorry if that offended you.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/brackish-fish.67717/
EA I said in my experience its a no no, as it usually hardens the water and it is very common to carry metals. Its granite... Sorry if that offended you.

No offense taken. Your information is inaccurate.

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/basics/basics_decorations.html

You can build caves and entire structures out of rocks. Rocks provide fish with shelter, places to hide and places to lay eggs. They also can be used as territorial boundaries, which is essential to many fish. Use only Calcium free rocks like Granite, Slate, Sandstone and Lava. You should build any rock structures directly on the tank bottom, before you add the gravel to prevent any anaerobic bacteria beds from forming.

http://www.myaquariumclub.com/safe-and-unsafe-aquarium-rocks-533.html



As for the silver dollars... also inaccurate.
Silver dollars are freshwater fish... ONLY. Being able to tolerate salt and being kept in brackish conditions full-time are not the same thing. A lot of freshwater fish can tolerate salt, but that doesn't mean that they should be kept that way for the long term.

 

[DutchMuch]

How was I inaccurate for the brackish fish topic if I didn't say any facts? I simply gave a link? "inaccurate!"
Wish you said that so bluntly to every member and not me as an individual as you said yourself; be nice... I am sound & confident, I would like to see your proof that "rocks" or granite does not harden the water, period. In fact it does. Sites like MAC and others are an individually wrote or created site which is from one persons perspective, in no way shape or form is that person qualified to say that one thing is a must rather than have a bunch of opinions from different people like me in this case, say it is something that can or will happen.
My proof that granite does harden water: If you do conduct the vinegar test on a piece or chunk of pure granite rock, it will fizz. Usually fizzing is needed to see with a microscope or a simple magnifying glass. Some fizzing is large and some is small. Now on the scientific stand point, here is a good certified and community (meaning more than 1 person in ownership) operated website that states how a rock could be seen as hard and how it is prepared for a tank. https://www.thespruce.com/do-rocks-affect-aquarium-water-ph-1378749 . Some websites say that granite Will not harden your water, to me and all my personal attempts (not anymore but in my beginner days) I had not succeeded 100 percent. Does contain a lot of calcium so watch those levels if you do attempt. It is commonly used in cichlid community tanks, that and slate...

 

[Byron]

As for the silver dollars... also inaccurate.
Silver dollars are freshwater fish... ONLY. Being able to tolerate salt and being kept in brackish conditions full-time are not the same thing. A lot of freshwater fish can tolerate salt, but that doesn't mean that they should be kept that way for the long term.

Agree. "Tolerate" may usually be taken as very limited and minimal exposure, as for instance when salt is used as a treatment. No freshwater fish with the possible exception of Poecilia sphenops (molly) will function properly in any level of brackish water.

That information on MonsterFishKeepers is highly unreliable. Anyone who suggests "no idea but I'm sure they could acclimate if you did the acclimation slowly" cannot be trusted. That is guesswork, not ichthyology.

The range of a species is a good guide as to its water parameter preferences for long-term maintenance. "Silver dollars" is applied to several species in the hobby, with varying ranges. Metynnis argenteus for example occurs in Rio Tapajos basin in southern Brazil and I can assure everyone that this species would never come into contact with anything but fresh water. M. hypsauchen is a bit more difficult to pin down geographically. The populations recorded from the Amazon and Rio Paraguay basins will certainly be fresh with no chance of brackish conditions.

The Guyana population(s) are apparently in northern rivers of the Guiana [Guyana] Shield; Baensch & Riehl mention the Rio Orinoco as well as the more southern land-locked rivers above, and while the Orinoco does empty into the Atlantic, I would suggest that the fish species would not be likely to venture that far downstream. I have more experience with the few Corydoras species that are found in coastal rivers, and there is plenty of evidence that these fish absolutely avoid brackish water and remain well upstream. We sometimes forget that in natural habitats, fish species can remain geographically isolated due solely to water parameters. Species of Corydoras (also applies to many other fishes among the characins for instance) in adjoining tributaries of larger streams or rivers may sometimes never be found in the adjoining streams, even though it would be easy to swim from one to the other. David Sands did work on this aspect with the several "Corydoras adolfoi" species that are endemic to adjoining streams on the north side of the Rio Negro and found pH and temperature of the main river kept the individual species isolated in the respective tributaries that had significantly different parameters (significant to the fish). So much so that the last common ancestor was able to evolve into the four or five closely related species we find there today. Isolation resulted in these species, something that would not likely have occurred if they had crossed the "natural boundaries" of the water parameters.

There is also the habitat type in which these species (Metynnis sp.) are found; densely planted is how SF describe them, "heavily grown" in Baensch & Riehl, etc. This does not refer to brackish water by any stretch.

Byron.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Dutch,

This will be my final post on this topic, as I do not want to derail this topic any further. But, you continue to post inaccurate information about granite. And when any member posts inaccuracies that I am aware of, I post to correct the incorrect information. Our goal is to promote best practices and correct information.

Your link does not directly discuss granite, as your last link did not support your discussion of silver dollars as brackish or anything remotely similar. It is a discussion board, just like this one, and the very last post on that discussion said definitively, as I have that silver dollars are not in any way, shape or form brackish.

https://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/111938

Compared to calcareous sandstones, marble and limestone, granite is not an acid soluble stone and is much more resistant to the effects of acidic solutions, rainwater or cleansing agents. In general, igneous building stones, such as granite, have a more inert composition; show much lower rates of deterioration; have lower water absorption, and are harder than marbles, limestones and sandstones.

In other words, the affect on the gH and kH in a fish tank due to the deterioration of granite in that fish tank will be negligible between regularly scheduled water changes. Any fishkeeper who has an effect from granite in their tank, is not due to the granite but poor husbandry.

You claimed that granite has 'a lot of calcium' in it. This is also inaccurate.
http://nature.berkeley.edu/classes/eps2/wisc/granite.html

The chemical composition of granite is typically 70-77% silica, 11-13% alumina, 3-5% potassium oxide, 3-5% soda, 1% lime, 2-3% total iron, and less than 1% magnesia and titania.

Harvey Blatt & Robert J. Tracy (1997). Petrology (2nd ed.). New York: Freeman. p. 66. ISBN 0-7167-2438-3.
Worldwide average of granite's chemical composition by weight... from nearly 2500 distinct samples.

SiO2 72.04% (silica)
Al2O3 14.42% (alumina)
K2O 4.12%
Na2O 3.69%
CaO 1.82%
FeO 1.68%
Fe2O3 1.22%
MgO 0.71%
TiO2 0.30%
P2O5 0.12%
MnO 0.05%

 

[Yande]

Thanks all for your replies, I really apreciate your clarifications.
I guess that there must be a distinction between "Silver Dollar Fish" and "Dollar Fish", for the latter are, my (Chinese) wife's fish of choice to be eaten whilst in China, and yes, as an Australian Fisherman, a saltwater species we threw over the side, then, (20 years ago) but perhaps not so much now? Amazing to see what is eaten in China, and what we sent down the shute, to be eaten by dolphins and sharks whilst trawing in the NW of Australia.
You guys would just love the species that we pulled up. Gosh, I saw a Mantis Shrimp, aka Prawn Killer for sale in sydney last week, for $AUD99. hehe.
Yes, we had a great day driving into the hills behind us, searching what are occasional flooded Creeks and came out with a couple of nice pieces of river wood. They won't be going anywhere near my new tank until seasoned, boiled and referred to my ..."the guy I know that knows more than I!"
I read that slate and granite were pretty well inert, perhaps basalt as well, all of which we found some nice pieces.
Granite is pure, no rust stains. As stated, it was used to build the Sydney Harbour Bridge, exact source..