New 10 Gallon Tank But Got Ich

[crumpybumpy]

Hi.

10 gallon tank that I want to use for an oranda or 2 ..went through nitrogen cycle so that pH 7.4 Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate 0. temp 72 degrees no heater. 4 plants and loads of snails.

during the break in I got a goblin oranda...after about a week, he became lethargic staying at the bottom of the tank and decreased appetite. Then the ich spots developed. I tried using Ich Attack Herbal formula...it said to take out the carbon filter but when I did that the water got all cloudy. During that break-in, the nitrites were very high so that could have contributed to his sickness. I posted all of that here

So he died. I waited about 2 weeks and by then the water measurements were good. So I got a second goblin oranda from the same store.....I noticed that some of their other moors had ich and the owner dumped some blue chemicals into their tank....and they were for sale, ich and all!

So I got a second goblin oranda...he seemed healthy...but 1 week later same symptoms...lethargic, then ich spots..then dead.

So questions are:

How long does ich stay in tank if the only thing that is in there are snails and plants?

What should I do to prepare the tank for another oranda..I don't want to dump the water and start all over due to the snails/plants/and finished nitrogen cycle.

 

[This Old Spouse]

First, a 10g tank is too small for orandas. Second, I read another post from you where you said the LFS you bought them from already had ich in the tanks, but you bought them anyway?? Read up on ich. It's a free floating organism that can stay in the tank a good long time looking for a host. You should definitely "dump the water and start all over" unless you just want to keep killing fish. Use the ich medication for the full duration listed on the package. And by the way, dumping all your water doesn't start the cycle all over again. Your filter media is where the good bacteria live. Please go to the beginner's section and read up on cycling your tank, the ich cycle, etc. before you buy another fish. Please.

EDIT: I found several sites dealing with oranda goldfish. Google that term and you should find plenty of information, like the fact they grow to 7-14".

 

[fluttermoth]

I agree that 10 gallons is far too small for any kind of goldfish.

How exactly did you cycle the tank? Because everything you're describing sounds like what would happen to a fish in an uncycled tank.

If you add a heater you could keep some small tropical fish, perhaps a betta and some rasboras; bettas have easily as much character as goldies

 

[This Old Spouse]

If you're using an API liquid test kit, you need to really shake up the nitrate test bottle. Rap it on a table or floor a few times and then just shake the heck out of it. I kept getting inaccurate test readings for nitrate which is why I switched to Nutrafin tests.

 

[crumpybumpy]

The API tests are fine and the cycle is done. I do the full shake routine as per the directions for the nitrate. \

The "LFS" said a 10 gallon tank is fine to start the little orandas in, which these are, and then I can move them upwards as they grow.

I already have another fish tank that is thriving with swordtails (had 12 babies, 8 survived), mollies, endlers, puffer fish, shrimp and snails. I want this 10 gallon tank to be for orandas.

I would assume that to "dump and replace the water" for that to be effective to kill the ich, you would need to totally dry out the tank for the ich cysts to die...thus that would kill the healthy bacteria and thus I'd have to restart the nitrogen cycle all over again. Old Spouse maybe you should go consult the beginner section regarding this concept

The filter is an aqueon cartidge system where the cartidge needs to be replaced every 4-6 weeks. Doesn't that remove the bacteria from the filter media? or is the healthy bacteria also in the gravel and plants?

What I am trying to figure out is, is the ich still in there...how long does it stay there, and did oranda #2 get ich because he had it from the store or did he get it even though 2 weeks passed with no fish in the tank. I am assuming from your commentary the consennsus is that you think the ich is still there. I'm going to wait another 2 weeks and get another oranda from a different store.

And no..I did not buy a fish from a tank that I willingly knew had ich in it.

 

[crumpybumpy]

Hmmm...these sites seems to support that if you leave the tank without fish for a few weeks the ich dies and does not "linger" or "lie dormant"

"Quickly it attaches to a substrate and encysts, as the reproducing stage. This life-stage doesn't eat. Its metabolic clock is now ticking; it is spending its stored energy to divide and divide again within the short-lived cyst. The tomont's time-span remains temperature-dependent: at common aquarium temperatures it's a matter of hours to days. (In a chilly koi pond in early spring, the cyst may persist longer.) Ultimately hundreds of mobile tomites burst from the cyst, even as many as 2000. They quick sprout cilia and start actively swimming about in search of a host. The fully developed "swarmers" are now called theronts (Greek ther- denotes a critter).

The tomites'/theronts' metabolism is also temperature-dependent, but they must find a host within a very few days or perish: at 68oF none survived after 55 hours, according to the pioneer expert in fish diseases Wilhelm Schaperclaus. The gelatinous thin-walled cyst can't survive being completely dried out, an incentive to let your nets dry out completely, if there is Ich anywhere among your tanks." which is from here

and

"Does Ich lay Dormant, or is Ich always Present?
Ich is NOT always present in an aquarium, despite many anecdotal claims made in forums, articles or by aquarium store employees (often to cover up for poor quality stock).
I have conducted tests (and read others as well) where by I killed off any Ich (if there was any depending on the control group) and then subjected the fish to many stressors that commonly bring on Ich such as sudden temperature drops with NO resulting Ich outbreaks.
It is important to note that the Ich protozoan cannot live outside water and if dried, its cell wall would collapse permanently destroying this single cell parasite so this point also makes migration of Ich from anything other than transport via infected fish or similar water transfer impossible. This also goes for marine Ich (Cryptocaryon) which I almost never had problems with in tanks where all fish were carefully added and there were no previous outbreaks." which is from here

 

[fluttermoth]

I'd still like to know how you originally cycled the tank. Not that I'm disbelieving you or anything, it's just the more detailed information we have, the better we can pinpoint what the problem might be.

What did you feed the tank with in the two weeks between the first oranda dying and adding the second?

The ich parasite in your tank will certainly be dead after two weeks, but it could well be present in the fish store tanks even if the fish are showing no symptoms. Fish with a healthy slime coat are unlikely to catch ich, IME; it's when the fish are already sick or stressed that their slime coat weakens and the ich can get a foothold.

Manufacturers alway tell people that they need to change the filter cartidges; it's just a way for them to continue making money from you . You're quite right, it would mean you're getting rid of all your friendly bacteria, so don't change them, just rinse them in some old tank water.

I know it seems silly for us too keep banging on about orandas needing a larger tank; you'd think it would be ok to start them off in something smaller, wouldn't you? In practice though, it's not a good idea; a lot of fish, including goldies, produce a hormone that stunts their growth once it reaches a certain concentration, and it's impossible to tell when that's happened until it's already too late, and the damage has been done.

There is also the fact that fish, like most animals, do the majority of their growing when they're young. An oranda in an appropriately sized tank, with a good water change regime, should be hitting six or seven inches by a year old, so it really is hardly worth 'starting them off' in a small tank, as it will only be a matter of a month or two before they need upgrading to a permanent home anyway.

 

[crumpybumpy]

As an update to this story. I went to a different fish store after a week of no fish in the tank. I bought an oranda and then 2 weeks later a ranchu. They are both thriving with no problems. That first store sold me sick with ich fish!

 

[HAMBONE]

As an update to this story. I went to a different fish store after a week of no fish in the tank. I bought an oranda and then 2 weeks later a ranchu. They are both thriving with no problems. That first store sold me sick with ich fish!

get some vogel.. it works great!!