Neon Tetras.

[Primous]

@Aquascaper The answer to that is no.

@the rest of you... Allow me to clarify my position if I may. I live in London, here we have the worst water of not just the UK but of every major city in the EU. On average a glass of water here has been recycled 10 times before it's put to use by the next Londoner. London's water parameters vary wildly (from one extreme to the other week to week) and the often cited "particles and micro organisms" are teeming in my average glass of water according to the panorama program I watched a few years back. lol Our water is so bad that it has it's own distinct flavor and often leaves the tap looking like milk.

I say all of the above to say this. Sensitive fish as I understand it react to low measures of ammonia and nitrite. If the particles and micro organisms were something that adversely affected neon tetras then I and every other Londoner that doesn't treat their water (bar dechlor) before putting it in the tank couldn't keep neons.

People simply don't cycle the tank to the measure they need to achieve then add neons which die, and then blame it on the things meanies they can't see or more crucially identify.

 

[elmo666]

This seems to be going no-where. The last post to me suggests that the problem is introducing sensitive fish whilst still having measureable no and no2. That is referring to a tank insufficiently cycled. Then we discuss the "micro-organsms" that develop as the tank "matures" yet are imeasureable so we have no way of telling if they are there or in what numbers. I think the answer is simple. When you are happy that your tank is cycled, add your first fish. Check parameters to see how the filter is coping. If all is well go ahead and add neons if you want to. Neons may or may not be "delicate", I have never found them to be. The problem is they are normally the newbies first choice, and how many new tanks are correctly cycled???

 

[Aquascaper]

A 'sensitive' fish is not one that just reacts to low levels of ammonia and nitrites though, that can be said of all fish just to varying degrees.

Abnormal sensitivity to any of the 'known' variables such as pH, alkalinity, silicates, sodium, etc. would deem that particular fish as 'sensitive' and these would have a higher survival rate in stable tanks which have had time for these parameters to settle.

 

[Primous]

A 'sensitive' fish is not one that just reacts to low levels of ammonia and nitrites though, that can be said of all fish just to varying degrees.

Abnormal sensitivity to any of the 'known' variables such as pH, alkalinity, silicates, sodium, etc.

Sensitivity to Gh Kh slicates and such can be measured and to date I have very rarely heard or read of neon tetras not adapting to these measurable conditions. And when they do succumb, it's usually down to poor acclimation where the fish doesn't make it through the night or the next 24 hours. And it's pretty safe to say that very rarely is it advised to look out for kh and silicates etc when adding neon tetras to your tank.

To be clear what I'm talking about is the notion that if you add neon tetras and then after a short while, they die. That this is due to immeasurable micro organisms, particles and ions. Again that's just folklore. And sadly there is a dense amount of folklore in regards to this hobby. As I mentioned I have the worst water for fish keeping because of my location, microbes particles, dense metals galore. Neon tetras like most fish can adapt, they may not breed, but they can adapt and live long lives of schooling and playing in the filter flow.

However neon tetras can not stand sustained low levels of ammonia and nitrite. Filters which have not been cycled fully (usually because the newbie has been waiting weeks and lost patience with the process) maintain low levels of ammonia and nitrite. Microbes, micro organisms, particles, ions and all the other immeasurable things are in my opinion just an excuse for when those neon tetras die.

 

[Aquascaper]

As I said before I'm not getting into the neon specific debate but was referring to the classification of a mature tank in geberal. It seems you have a thing about neons so I'll stop my line of debate and leave the neon sensitivity issues to those interested in neons.

 

[snazy]

The best example in regards to what sensitive is, is some inverts like certain species of shrimp which are mostly kept with RO water to which the desired minerals are added artificially and this way it avoids any unwanted compounds. To them everything that the water is made off matters, the total TDS and it's mini compounds GH, KH, PH, minerals, metals, dissolved organics, ferts added, CO2, etc, etc.. so adding pure water mixed only with the good stuff needed by them and no risky things that can come through your tap is the only way to go. This has nothing to do with mature tank and beneficial microbs and bacteria, although these add to the total TDS too but the beneficial microorganisms are not the stuff they are sensitive too. And the tank of course has to be free of ammonia and nitrItes and very low nitrAtes.
The most common thing recommended for not so sensitive fish kept in tap water instead, is to do very regular water changes, why, because it keeps the level of stuff in the tank to the one that is contained in the tap water added and by doing regular water changes you don't let the tank chemistry change completely over time and create mass die off one day when you change your substrate for example and do a very large water change. The regular water changes that we call fresh water are actually done to lower the TDS level in the tank to which some species are sensitive if it goes through the roof. Now if you have tap water that from time to time gets contamiated with a metal or similar thing that these sensitive fish are not tolerant off, then obvioulsy the water changes can't help and you end up on Tropical Fish forums asking why certain species die in your tank with so perfect levels and then you end up either changing to different fish or come here on Tropical Fish forums asking questions
For neon tetras, I don't know, but reading about them being sick all around the place has put me off for life. And the most common case of fish being sick is during a cycle or the first 5-6 months after a fish-in cycle when fish "mysteriously" start getting sick and dying of all type of diseases which is plain and simple fish damaged by toxins at the first place and no matter how well the tank gets after a cycle, the damage is done and can't be reverted in majority of cases.

 

[PrairieSunflower]

@Aquascaper The answer to that is no.

@the rest of you... Allow me to clarify my position if I may. I live in London, here we have the worst water of not just the UK but of every major city in the EU. On average a glass of water here has been recycled 10 times before it's put to use by the next Londoner. London's water parameters vary wildly (from one extreme to the other week to week) and the often cited "particles and micro organisms" are teeming in my average glass of water according to the panorama program I watched a few years back. lol Our water is so bad that it has it's own distinct flavor and often leaves the tap looking like milk.

I say all of the above to say this. Sensitive fish as I understand it react to low measures of ammonia and nitrite. If the particles and micro organisms were something that adversely affected neon tetras then I and every other Londoner that doesn't treat their water (bar dechlor) before putting it in the tank couldn't keep neons.

People simply don't cycle the tank to the measure they need to achieve then add neons which die, and then blame it on the things meanies they can't see or more crucially identify.

Hmmmm makes me wonder if that is why my fish go funny from time to time. I had one tank disaster with so many different symptoms and never could figure it out before the entire tank died... I live in London too... maybe it was a time of icky water.

 

[stanster]

Thanks for all the input.
Glad to have stirred up such a interesting debate.

My tank is cycled so hopefully should be ok.

Just wished I'd taken up the hobby earlier when I had an unlimited supply of RO water from my lab.