Neon Tetra Disease

[NonstickRon]

I'm kinda bummed, hadn't lost a fish in a good while now, thought I was doing good. Ok, so yeah. Got this Neon Tetra Disease in my tank.

Long story short, I was browsing diagnosis sites tonight and I found a photo of exactly what my neons have.
[URL="http/www.fishdeals.com/fish_diseases/neon_tetra_disease/"]http/www.fishdeals.com/fish_diseases/neon_tetra_disease/[/URL]

I'm a little concerned due to the statement about it not being treatable. Came with one of the Black Neons I bought some time ago...I'd described the symptoms before but never really got it properly diagnosed or resolved and just kinda hoped it would go away with water changes. Well, it didn't, and I actually had one of my angelfish come down with something wierd too...A wierd sore that has slowly grown on its side. I didn't think it was connected at all cause it looked completely different from the wierd looking neon I have. Retrospectively, probably though because the fish is a much lighter color I guess. I managed to get the Angel out of the tank finally...I've a lot of trouble with that due to plants, decor. In the quarantine tank I was able to get a better look at it & noticed theres what looks like blistering along its dorsal fin. I'll include some links to some photos of the angelfish and my tank. Can't get the neons to hold still enough for my phone to snap a good enough photo to bother posting.

Angelfish - http/flickr.com/photos/nonstickron/32137...157612763413147
Tank - http/flickr.com/photos/nonstickron/32146...in/photostream/

To answer the first string of questions before they're asked...tank readings are:
55 gallon, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 30, ph 6.8, temp 78, weekly water changes of 25-30%, feed New Life Spectrum, declor with Prime, filter is a Rena xp3 canister, fish recently added, 3 - 3 inch peacock malawi cichlids that lived in my hospital tank for about three weeks without me noticing anything wrong with them.

Plan of action: I still need to get the Black Neons out of course. I'm going to make a trap out of a water bottle, hopefully that will do the trick. Apparently it has spread to my one angelfish, and hopefully not to anything else. Especially since I just today managed to catch my rams and move them to a different tank today. I've dosed twice with Clout now, because a few days ago I noticed clear poops and I've had hex problems in the past. Also its a broad spectrum anti-parasitic and I wasn't really sure what was wrong with the Angelfish and figured parasites were a good a place to start as any. Going to do a water change tomorrow night (too late at night to get started wth it now) and every other night thereafter for a couple of weeks.

 

[Colin_T]

True neon disease is rare and affects fish very quickly, usually within a day or two of introducing a new fish the others will be dieing. If you haven't introduced any new fish into the tank for a couple of weeks then it is more likely to be a bacterial infection.

The angelfish looks like it has an ulcer. These start out as a little white dot resembling a pimple. Then the area around the dot goes red and becomes inflamed. After a few days the white bit disappears and the red area expands creating an open wound that can appear white, cream, or pink. Slowly over the course of several weeks the wound gets bigger and a cavity/ crater becomes noticeable as the disease eats into the fish's body tissue.
Ulcers are generally caused by Aeromonas, a flesh eating bacterium. They can usually be treated with anti-biotics like Tetracycline. However, this drug is strong and will wipe out filter bacteria. You also require a vet to supply the drug. A lot of minor infections can be cured with general anti-bacterial medications available from the petshop. Perhaps try one of these first and if the fish hasn't improved then check with a fish vet for something stronger.

If the fish develop a disease you should not move them into other tanks unless those tanks are quarantine/ isolation tanks. If you move fish from a contaminated tank into another tank with healthy fish in, you could transfer the disease to that tank as well.

Peacock cichlids from Lake Malawi really need water that is slightly alkaline and they shouldn't be kept with fish like angels and rams. Although the peacocks are only small (3inches) they do get to about 5 inches and will probably bully the smaller cichlids when they get older. They will also be stressed by living in water with a PH of 6.8. Perhaps when the problem has been solved you could move them into another tank without small peaceful cichlids and give them slightly harder, more alkaline water.

 

[NonstickRon]

True neon disease is rare and affects fish very quickly, usually within a day or two of introducing a new fish the others will be dieing. If you haven't introduced any new fish into the tank for a couple of weeks then it is more likely to be a bacterial infection.

The angelfish looks like it has an ulcer. These start out as a little white dot resembling a pimple. Then the area around the dot goes red and becomes inflamed. After a few days the white bit disappears and the red area expands creating an open wound that can appear white, cream, or pink. Slowly over the course of several weeks the wound gets bigger and a cavity/ crater becomes noticeable as the disease eats into the fish's body tissue.
Ulcers are generally caused by Aeromonas, a flesh eating bacterium. They can usually be treated with anti-biotics like Tetracycline. However, this drug is strong and will wipe out filter bacteria. You also require a vet to supply the drug. A lot of minor infections can be cured with general anti-bacterial medications available from the petshop. Perhaps try one of these first and if the fish hasn't improved then check with a fish vet for something stronger.

If the fish develop a disease you should not move them into other tanks unless those tanks are quarantine/ isolation tanks. If you move fish from a contaminated tank into another tank with healthy fish in, you could transfer the disease to that tank as well.

Peacock cichlids from Lake Malawi really need water that is slightly alkaline and they shouldn't be kept with fish like angels and rams. Although the peacocks are only small (3inches) they do get to about 5 inches and will probably bully the smaller cichlids when they get older. They will also be stressed by living in water with a PH of 6.8. Perhaps when the problem has been solved you could move them into another tank without small peaceful cichlids and give them slightly harder, more alkaline water.

Well, thanks for diagnosing the angelfish. Thats a big big help, she is currently the only inhabitant of my 10gallon hospital tank. As far as anti-biotics, what about penicillin? I know a local fish store that sells it. All I've currently got on hand is Melafix. Is this "flesh eating bacterium" dangerous to humans? Humans who have the horrible habit of chewing the skin off around their finger nails till they bleed?

Two of the 6 black neons I have exhibit discoloration identical to that in the photo pictured in the link above for Neon Tetra Disease.

Yes, I'm aware of the issue of the cichlids outgrowing thier current tank mates. Which is why I put so much effort today into getting the rams out and into my other tank...unintentionally moving whatever is in my big tank into the little one in the process probably. I have intended to remove all the smaller fish to a smaller tank and leaving the peacocks and angels in the big one. The angels all came from the same place the peacock's did, and the fella has been breeding both and keeping them together successfully for a very long time...his angelfish just end up being a bit more aggressive than average angels apparently.

 

[Colin_T]

I have never used it so not sure about penicillin? It is a pretty strong anti-biotic and again should require a vet prescription to buy it. You must have soft laws governing the use of drugs

Aeromonas isn't normally a problem to people and only affects fish when they are run down. Old fish or those that have been stressed out recently (ie: from poor environmental conditions or being shipped across the world) are the most likely to suffer from the problem. If you wash your hands with warm soapy water after working in the tank you have nothing to worry about. However, if you have open sores or cuts on your hands then you should stay out of the tank until they have healed. There are plenty of other nasty bugs in fish tanks that can affect you but again if you wash after working in the tank and don't go into the tank with open cuts or sores then you are unlikely to ever catch anything.

The picture in the link looks more like a general bacterial infection and if you have had the black neons for a few weeks and they didn't show any signs originally, then it is unlikely to be neon disease, but it is likely to be a bacterial infection. It's very possible that the angel and black neons have the same problem and a general anti-bacterial medication will clear both problems up.

Do you clean the gravel when you do a water change? If not then you should start doing that. Dirty gravel is a common cause of diseases in fish. Also if you haven’t cleaned the filter in the last 4 weeks then do that too. Filters should be cleaned about once a month regardless of if they are dirty. Clean water in the tank will quickly get dirty if it passes through a dirty filter.

 

[NonstickRon]

Well after much cursing and teeth gnashing, and a 2 liter bottle quickly made into a trap, I've managed to catch 4 of the 6 neons. One of them has shown the same discoloration since I got it sometime around thanksgiving. I'll try some more tomorrow night to catch the other two. I'll leave the 2 liter in there and see what happens overnight.

I must admit that for a little while, my water changes weren't as frequent as they probably should have been...for about 3 months I was doing it only when I went to clean the filter.

I do clean the filter...rinse all the media inside my filter out with tank water about once a month. I recently got an iphone and have been trying to make up for past infractions by scheduling reminders on it for me to perform maintenance.

I guess start with something like Jungle Bacteria Cure in the hospital tank?

 

[Colin_T]

yep I would just start with the Jungle anti-bacterial treatment if you have some and see what happens.
If it is a minor bacterial infection it should start to respond pretty quickly (within a day) and usually the problem is gone in a few days. The angelfish will probably take longer if it is an ulcer. It can take a week or so to kill the bacteria because it is in the flesh. But usually after a week the area should look better and not appear as inflamed. Then it will take a few more weeks before the wound has healed and closed up.

If the problem does clear up continue treating the fish for a week to make sure the disease is gone completely. People often stop treatment as soon as the symptoms disappear. Sometimes this is fine but sometimes there are still a couple of bacteria hiding in the fish and they can quickly multiply and it starts all over again.

 

[NonstickRon]

yep I would just start with the Jungle anti-bacterial treatment if you have some and see what happens.
If it is a minor bacterial infection it should start to respond pretty quickly (within a day) and usually the problem is gone in a few days. The angelfish will probably take longer if it is an ulcer. It can take a week or so to kill the bacteria because it is in the flesh. But usually after a week the area should look better and not appear as inflamed. Then it will take a few more weeks before the wound has healed and closed up.

If the problem does clear up continue treating the fish for a week to make sure the disease is gone completely. People often stop treatment as soon as the symptoms disappear. Sometimes this is fine but sometimes there are still a couple of bacteria hiding in the fish and they can quickly multiply and it starts all over again.

And I guess I just cross my fingers and hope theres nothing lingering in my main tank and keep up water changes?

 

[Colin_T]

You can lower the risk of the other fish becoming infected by doing a partial (30-50%, preferably 50) water change and complete gravel clean each day for a week or two. And if you clean the filter each week for a couple of weeks that will also help.
Make sure any new water going into the tank is free of chlorine/ chloramine and has a similar temperature and PH to the tank.
Fish naturally live in a soup of disease organisms and are fine. But when the tank conditions get a little too dirty or the fish get stressed, then the diseases can take over. Cleaning the tank conditions up (by doing daily water changes and gravel cleans) will lower the pathogen count in the water and minimise the risk of infection to any of the other tank inhabitants.

 

[NonstickRon]

You can lower the risk of the other fish becoming infected by doing a partial (30-50%, preferably 50) water change and complete gravel clean each day for a week or two. And if you clean the filter each week for a couple of weeks that will also help.
Make sure any new water going into the tank is free of chlorine/ chloramine and has a similar temperature and PH to the tank.
Fish naturally live in a soup of disease organisms and are fine. But when the tank conditions get a little too dirty or the fish get stressed, then the diseases can take over. Cleaning the tank conditions up (by doing daily water changes and gravel cleans) will lower the pathogen count in the water and minimise the risk of infection to any of the other tank inhabitants.

I've got black flourite sand as my substrate. I try to vac up what poo I can by swishing the siphon around.

 

[NonstickRon]

Bought Jungle Anti-Bacteria Medicated food, API E.M. Erythromyscin (antibiotic), and aquarium salt in case of secondary ich infection.