Need Help!

[ssmith24]

I really need some advise. In the early November, I removed my 2 plecs (10" and 6" long) from my pond in order to keep them alive through the winter. My 55 tank was uncycled when I added them. I also added 2 small gouramis. As expected the ammonia started rising almost immediately and unexpectly, the Ph started dropping. By week 3, ph 6, am - between 4 & 8 and nitrates, .5. Nitrates 0

Weeks 4, through 7- ph stayed at 6, ammonia 4, Nitrites 0 and Nitrates 0. Weekly water changes (roughly 10%) had no impact on ammonia.

Week 8 - ph still at 6. Ammonia jumped to 8. I lost the smaller of my pleco. Water cloudy.
Week 9 - same readings. Again, water changes having no impact on test results.
Week 10, test results, unchanged. My large pleco passed Very sad and depressing. Gouramis, still eating and appear okay. Water clearing.
Week 11 & 12. No change. Water hazy.

Througout weeks 4 through 12, I did regular water changes (5% to 10%) Once or twice, even 25%. Cloudy water is getting better.

I know that the 2 plecs were large waste producers. I thought that since it has been 2 weeks since I lost them that I would start seeing some change in the ammonia level. But it hasn't moved.

This morning I performed an unscientific experiment when testing the water for ammonia.
Normal test - Am 8
2nd test: 100% tap - No ammonia
3rd test - 1/2 test tube with tank water & 1/2 with tap. Results vitually indistinguishable from the normal test.
4th test - 3/4 test tub with tap, remaining tank. Results: Look close to 4.

Big surprise - this is bad. I need to change more water frequently and possibly more at a time. I just don't know how much I can do without harming my gouramis (perhaps I should say anymore). Any advise on how I can get the tank under control?

Other information: Right around week 8 I started seeing algae. Dusty black sediment on gravel. I've vacuum gravel during water changes and have taken out artifical plants and decorations cleaning them with very hot tank water (no soap or cleaners). Algae just comes back. I know an Algae eater would be great but not until the tank has stabilized.

Thanks for any help

 

[tttnjfttt]

I think your water test kit may be off. I'd recomend taking a sample to a LPS to get a second opinion. The reason i am thinking this is the tests you did with tap water and tank water mixed. The 50/50 mix should have been showing some ammonia, probably between 2 and 3.

I really don't see any fish living for 3 months in that ammonia concentration.

Also, begin doing daily regular water changes of about 25% until you have this sorted out.

 

[windtrancer]

cloudy water means you have a lot of bacteria in the tank, which is normal since your cycle may be ending.

an algae bloom also accompanies the end of a cycle.

 

[wheelyfeet]

I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your Plecos, especially since they were the reason that you established this tank. Your post leaves me with a lot of questions because at this point your bioload should be low enough for your tank's biofilter to handle.

My advice:
Take a sample of your tank water and a sample of your tap water to a reputable fish store. Have them run the tests that you have run to verify accuracy. Have them test your tap water and your tank water for KH (alkalinity), GH (hardness), and any other tests that they recommend. Also have them test your tap water for chloramines. If your water contains chloramines and you are using a water conditioner meant to remove only chlorine, the byproduct is ammonia.

If your tap water KH is low, then your water has little ability to maintain a stable pH. A little fish pee in the water and pH will plummet. With an old tank that has had less than optimal water changes, the buffering capacity will lower (and hardness rises), which is why it is good to continue checking levels on a weekly basis. If your tap water KH is fine, but your tank is low, I'd correct the problem by doing frequent partial water changes. If your tap water is low, you may need to add a buffer (not pH up.) Remember, fish can adapt to a stable pH, but not to a bouncing pH.

There is a weird mystic about water changes. This is probably due to holdovers from faulty ideas from the "olden days." I am thoroughly convinced that water changes are your fish's best friend. Frequent water changes can ward off a host of problems and cure others. It helps maintain a stable pH, a stable buffer, keeps hardness manageable, improves oxygen levels, controls nitrates, prevents algae growth, and more. In nature, water is constantly being changed. In the home, if fresh water is not supplied, the levels of toxins build and the ability of the water to remain stable and retain oxygen is diminished. I do a 25% water change every week. During the cycling phase, I change water often enough and in a high enough volume to keep ammonia .25 or less and nitrites .50 or less. It does lengthen the cycling phase considerably, but it reduces the stress on the fish.

As for your high ammonia levels, this can be a number of things. The bottom line is that too much ammonia is being produced for your biofilter to handle. Normally this is caused by too many fish (no longer a problem), overfeeding, fish waste in the tank, dead things rotting in the tank or filter, or possibly chloramines' byproducts.

After you have your water tested, do a 50% water change (if there isn't huge tap/tank water differences). While you are changing the water, vacuum the gravel. Vacuum the gravel by gently inserting the siphon into the gravel and then lifting it up so that the gravel falls out and the crud siphons up. Do this one spot at a time. Do not rake the siphon through the gravel. That only stirs up the crud and very little siphons out.

If there is a huge tap/tank difference you may need to use an emergency ammonia remover, preferably in your filter or a pillow, because you will want to do frequent smaller water changes (15 to 25%) until the levels become more closely matched.

I think your cloudy water is a problem with your filter. Are you getting a nice flow of water out of it? If you use a power filter, take apart your filter and clean it (you may be shocked at what is in there). Run a brush through the tubes. Make sure the impellor is clean and moving freely. Rinse your mechanical filter media (batting, floss, sponge, ceramic stones) in tepid (never hot) dechlorinated water. This way the debris is swished out but the nitrifying bacteria are preserved. If your filter has a separate section of charcoal you can replace the charcoal. If it is one of those filter cartridges that does not have a separate biofilter medium, whenever the filter is changed you lose nearly the entire biofilter. If you have this type and do decide to replace it, put the old one in your tank, preferably over an air stone, to seed the tank with bacteria.

I am curious, what type of filter are you using? I had problems with one tank until I replaced the filter with one that had more biofiltering capacity.

You are wise to wait on adding fish until your water stabilizes. You've dealt with enough fish death for a season.

I know very little about algae. I would deal with your water quality first and then tackle the algae.

If I have confused you in anyway, please ask me questions. Best of luck.

 

[ssmith24]

I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your Plecos, especially since they were the reason that you established this tank. Your post leaves me with a lot of questions because at this point your bioload should be low enough for your tank's biofilter to handle.

My advice:
Take a sample of your tank water and a sample of your tap water to a reputable fish store. Have them run the tests that you have run to verify accuracy. Have them test your tap water and your tank water for KH (alkalinity), GH (hardness), and any other tests that they recommend. Also have them test your tap water for chloramines. If your water contains chloramines and you are using a water conditioner meant to remove only chlorine, the byproduct is ammonia.

If your tap water KH is low, then your water has little ability to maintain a stable pH. A little fish pee in the water and pH will plummet. With an old tank that has had less than optimal water changes, the buffering capacity will lower (and hardness rises), which is why it is good to continue checking levels on a weekly basis. If your tap water KH is fine, but your tank is low, I'd correct the problem by doing frequent partial water changes. If your tap water is low, you may need to add a buffer (not pH up.) Remember, fish can adapt to a stable pH, but not to a bouncing pH.

There is a weird mystic about water changes. This is probably due to holdovers from faulty ideas from the "olden days." I am thoroughly convinced that water changes are your fish's best friend. Frequent water changes can ward off a host of problems and cure others. It helps maintain a stable pH, a stable buffer, keeps hardness manageable, improves oxygen levels, controls nitrates, prevents algae growth, and more. In nature, water is constantly being changed. In the home, if fresh water is not supplied, the levels of toxins build and the ability of the water to remain stable and retain oxygen is diminished. I do a 25% water change every week. During the cycling phase, I change water often enough and in a high enough volume to keep ammonia .25 or less and nitrites .50 or less. It does lengthen the cycling phase considerably, but it reduces the stress on the fish.

As for your high ammonia levels, this can be a number of things. The bottom line is that too much ammonia is being produced for your biofilter to handle. Normally this is caused by too many fish (no longer a problem), overfeeding, fish waste in the tank, dead things rotting in the tank or filter, or possibly chloramines' byproducts.

After you have your water tested, do a 50% water change (if there isn't huge tap/tank water differences). While you are changing the water, vacuum the gravel. Vacuum the gravel by gently inserting the siphon into the gravel and then lifting it up so that the gravel falls out and the crud siphons up. Do this one spot at a time. Do not rake the siphon through the gravel. That only stirs up the crud and very little siphons out.

If there is a huge tap/tank difference you may need to use an emergency ammonia remover, preferably in your filter or a pillow, because you will want to do frequent smaller water changes (15 to 25%) until the levels become more closely matched.

I think your cloudy water is a problem with your filter. Are you getting a nice flow of water out of it? If you use a power filter, take apart your filter and clean it (you may be shocked at what is in there). Run a brush through the tubes. Make sure the impellor is clean and moving freely. Rinse your mechanical filter media (batting, floss, sponge, ceramic stones) in tepid (never hot) dechlorinated water. This way the debris is swished out but the nitrifying bacteria are preserved. If your filter has a separate section of charcoal you can replace the charcoal. If it is one of those filter cartridges that does not have a separate biofilter medium, whenever the filter is changed you lose nearly the entire biofilter. If you have this type and do decide to replace it, put the old one in your tank, preferably over an air stone, to seed the tank with bacteria.

I am curious, what type of filter are you using? I had problems with one tank until I replaced the filter with one that had more biofiltering capacity.

You are wise to wait on adding fish until your water stabilizes. You've dealt with enough fish death for a season.

I know very little about algae. I would deal with your water quality first and then tackle the algae.

If I have confused you in anyway, please ask me questions. Best of luck.

 

[ssmith24]

I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your Plecos, especially since they were the reason that you established this tank. Your post leaves me with a lot of questions because at this point your bioload should be low enough for your tank's biofilter to handle.

My advice:
Take a sample of your tank water and a sample of your tap water to a reputable fish store. Have them run the tests that you have run to verify accuracy. Have them test your tap water and your tank water for KH (alkalinity), GH (hardness), and any other tests that they recommend. Also have them test your tap water for chloramines. If your water contains chloramines and you are using a water conditioner meant to remove only chlorine, the byproduct is ammonia.

If your tap water KH is low, then your water has little ability to maintain a stable pH. A little fish pee in the water and pH will plummet. With an old tank that has had less than optimal water changes, the buffering capacity will lower (and hardness rises), which is why it is good to continue checking levels on a weekly basis. If your tap water KH is fine, but your tank is low, I'd correct the problem by doing frequent partial water changes. If your tap water is low, you may need to add a buffer (not pH up.) Remember, fish can adapt to a stable pH, but not to a bouncing pH.

There is a weird mystic about water changes. This is probably due to holdovers from faulty ideas from the "olden days." I am thoroughly convinced that water changes are your fish's best friend. Frequent water changes can ward off a host of problems and cure others. It helps maintain a stable pH, a stable buffer, keeps hardness manageable, improves oxygen levels, controls nitrates, prevents algae growth, and more. In nature, water is constantly being changed. In the home, if fresh water is not supplied, the levels of toxins build and the ability of the water to remain stable and retain oxygen is diminished. I do a 25% water change every week. During the cycling phase, I change water often enough and in a high enough volume to keep ammonia .25 or less and nitrites .50 or less. It does lengthen the cycling phase considerably, but it reduces the stress on the fish.

As for your high ammonia levels, this can be a number of things. The bottom line is that too much ammonia is being produced for your biofilter to handle. Normally this is caused by too many fish (no longer a problem), overfeeding, fish waste in the tank, dead things rotting in the tank or filter, or possibly chloramines' byproducts.

After you have your water tested, do a 50% water change (if there isn't huge tap/tank water differences). While you are changing the water, vacuum the gravel. Vacuum the gravel by gently inserting the siphon into the gravel and then lifting it up so that the gravel falls out and the crud siphons up. Do this one spot at a time. Do not rake the siphon through the gravel. That only stirs up the crud and very little siphons out.

If there is a huge tap/tank difference you may need to use an emergency ammonia remover, preferably in your filter or a pillow, because you will want to do frequent smaller water changes (15 to 25%) until the levels become more closely matched.

I think your cloudy water is a problem with your filter. Are you getting a nice flow of water out of it? If you use a power filter, take apart your filter and clean it (you may be shocked at what is in there). Run a brush through the tubes. Make sure the impellor is clean and moving freely. Rinse your mechanical filter media (batting, floss, sponge, ceramic stones) in tepid (never hot) dechlorinated water. This way the debris is swished out but the nitrifying bacteria are preserved. If your filter has a separate section of charcoal you can replace the charcoal. If it is one of those filter cartridges that does not have a separate biofilter medium, whenever the filter is changed you lose nearly the entire biofilter. If you have this type and do decide to replace it, put the old one in your tank, preferably over an air stone, to seed the tank with bacteria.

I am curious, what type of filter are you using? I had problems with one tank until I replaced the filter with one that had more biofiltering capacity.

You are wise to wait on adding fish until your water stabilizes. You've dealt with enough fish death for a season.

I know very little about algae. I would deal with your water quality first and then tackle the algae.

If I have confused you in anyway, please ask me questions. Best of luck.

TThank you very much for your comments.

I have an Emperor 400 (bi-wheel) and am using White Diamond Ammonia Neutralizing crystals in the media container. I changed the original filter almost immdiately from the Petsmart brand. I change the crystals every 2 weeks. I did a complete cleaning last week - your right, lots of nasty stuff. The bi-wheel looks good. I've thought about placing the original filter back in the tank for a couple of weeks to help the process.

I use Stress Coat as a water conditioner. It states that it "removes cholrine and neutralizes chloramines". Makes me wonder if I am getting an ammonia byproduct.

You mentioned that if the Kh in is low, I may need a buffer, but not Ph up. What do you recommend? I obviously do not want to raise the Ph until the ammonia is under control. It's my understanding that a Ph levels below 7, ammonia that is present is the non toxic form. (Which is the only reason the gouramis are still with me)

You also said if the tank / tap difference is not too great, then do a 50% water change. Should I worry about how quickly that will move the Ph level. My tap is 7 and the tank is 6. What is an ammonia remover "pillow"? The stuff I'm using in my media container Neutralizes but not remove.

Thanks again.

 

[wheelyfeet]

You are using an excellent filter. IMO, it is the best external power filter on the market.

After all you’ve described, I am at a loss as to why you have ammonia in your water. The Stress Coat works if you use it per instructions, you have a good filter, you don’t have too many fish, I doubt you’re giving more than a small pinch of food, and you’ve cleaned everything. I also don’t understand why you have zero nitrites with that high of an ammonia level. Hopefully, someone on this forum who has had a similar experience will respond.

Marineland’s White Diamond is made of clinoptilotite, which is an ammonia remover according to this article: http/www.marineland.com/science/articles...noptilolite.asp .

I can only recommend a trip to your LFS with water samples. If it’s a good store, they can provide more answers that anyone here can. A local store should also know about any issues with the local water supply. Don’t worry if you didn’t make your original purchase from them, they should still be happy to help and happy to have you as a return customer.

It certainly couldn’t hurt to add a second filter to help clear the cloudy water. Fresh charcoal will help clear organics.

I haven't needed a buffer. (I had stated that sodium bicarb is a buffer, but I take that back. I think it is too temporary. EDIT: I have now read that it is a buffer on several sites and isnt' a buffer on one site. ARGH.) I’m sure there are products at the fish store designed for buffering. Look for terms like “stabilizes pH” or “raises KH.” However, before you mess with any kind of chemicals, get your water tested. It’s so much better not to have to add anything if you don’t have to. Here is another article from Marineland. http/www.marineland.com/science/articles...kalinitypt2.asp

If you can stand one more link, here is one about pH. http/www.marineland.com/science/reports/11waterqual.asp In this article he says that fresh water fish can withstand a pH change of up to 3 to 4 units. Even a 50% change shouldn’t move your pH that much. We had a sudden big drop, 7.8 down to 6.8, in our fresh water supply. Our tank pH has only dropped from 7.8 to 7.6 even after tons of water changes. Maybe start with a 25% change and then test pH. If you feel it is safe, do another.

Please let me know what your LFS says. I’m truly curious to know what’s going on with your tank.

 

[ssmith24]

Went to the LFS today, my readings were correct. Basically, my water was a liquid cesspool. And yes, that even with ph @ 6, the ammonia was so high it was very surprising that the gouramis were alive.

LFS recommendation - start over. Drain the tank, clean the gravel. Since I only have two small gourmis there feeling was that I would have an easier time with a new cycle rather than trying to remove the high ammonia levels with regular and freguent water changes. Bottom line, that's what I did and I'm back to Day 1. PH 6.8. AM 0.

Wish me luck! I'm hopeful that in the very near future I'll have a beautiful community tank.

 

[tttnjfttt]

Good luck with that! Is there any chance of getting ahold of some bio media or gravel from an established tank? Also, if you can find Bio-Spira that has been refrigerated constantly that will be an instant way to cycle your tank. I know you can also find this online.