Need Help With Spiney Eels

[Mudfrog]

Ok, I love Spiney Eels but I cannot keep them alive, I have had 1 Fire eel, 2 tire tracks and 2 Peacocks and they have all died within 48 hours of placing them in my tank, even tried 3 different tanks. Amonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 12, PH is high (my tap water is around 8.4) but I'll retest the aquariums tonight and hardness was very hard untill I got my water softener. Is a PH that high able to kill eels? I've read hardness only effects spawning for fish but dunno if thats accurate. I've yet to have trouble with any of my other fish in these tanks..


Eels tried and tankmates:

30 Gallon with AC110
4" Striped Raphael
tried - 7" Fire Eel then 6" Peacock

29 Gallon with AC70
3.5" Striped Raphael
3x 2.5" Glass Headstanders
tried - 6" TireTrack then 5" Peacock then 3" TireTrack

I'm ready to start planning my in-wall 150gal and I want a Fire Eel for it but I want to make sure I have my parameters or whatever else is killing these little guys squared away first.

Anyone have any ideas??

 

[mlawson]

I'm not sure, maybe you should get nmonks opinion on this.

Fire eels can grow to 100cm and tire track eels can grow to 70cm.

 

[Mudfrog]

I'm not sure, maybe you should get nmonks opinion on this.

Fire eels can grow to 100cm and tire track eels can grow to 70cm.

I'll wait for them to chime in.. I forgot to add that every one of them were eating within a few hours of adding them to the tank if it makes a difference.

I have a 150 gal at my work that I can keep it in if it outgrows my 55 before I get my 150 set up, although I doubt it would. The footprint of the 150 will be 60x24x25. It will be housed with 1 or 2 bichirs (either Delhezi or Endli) and a black arowana.

 

[nmonks]

First things first... despite the fact spiny eels are widely sold, they aren't easy to keep. Often the best thing is to avoid them. A small bichir, like Polypterus senegalus or Polypterus palmas pollii, if certainly likely to be easier to keep as well as easy to mix with medium-sized catfish and characins.

Having said that, your problems specifically are difficult to know, but the high pH may be a factor. Few freshwater fish will do well above pH 8, and most prefer pH 7.5 or less. Strictly speaking, it isn't the pH itself that is the issue but the amount of dissolved material in the water, but certainly the combination of high hardness and high pH is not good. Spiny eels are certainly on the delicate side in terms of hardiness, and if I were you I'd be attempting to create an aquarium with pH 7.0, soft to moderately hard water before spending any more money on fishes. A water softener should help. Mixing unsoftened tap water with softened water at about 50:50 should get things in the right ball park. Are we talking about a reverse osmosis unit or a domestic water softener? If the latter, check with the manufacturer whether or not the water produced is safe with aquarium fish. It isn't always safe, because at least some designs replace the hardness with salt, which is why the drinking tap is connected to the mains water and not the softened water.

I don't know what "glass headstanders" are, but the catfish would be safe with the spiny eels. My issue with them is that the catfish could potentially eat all the food you put out for the eels. That said, doradid catfish are pretty dopey, so if you stick enough bloodworms in the tank, you might get away with it. Bloodworms, tubifex, and especially live earthworms are the way to go with spiny eels. They love earthworms as much as life itself.

Some extra advice: spiny eels do best in tanks with a sandy substrate. Fire eels and tyre tracks are big enough that as adults it doesn't matter too much, but small specimens of these species, as well as the smaller species like peacocks, should only be kept in tanks with a soft substrate. The issue is burrowing: they scratch themselves on gravel, and then infections set in, and then they die.

Cheers, Neale

 

[Mudfrog]

First things first... despite the fact spiny eels are widely sold, they aren't easy to keep. Often the best thing is to avoid them. A small bichir, like Polypterus senegalus or Polypterus palmas pollii, if certainly likely to be easier to keep as well as easy to mix with medium-sized catfish and characins.

Having said that, your problems specifically are difficult to know, but the high pH may be a factor. Few freshwater fish will do well above pH 8, and most prefer pH 7.5 or less. Strictly speaking, it isn't the pH itself that is the issue but the amount of dissolved material in the water, but certainly the combination of high hardness and high pH is not good. Spiny eels are certainly on the delicate side in terms of hardiness, and if I were you I'd be attempting to create an aquarium with pH 7.0, soft to moderately hard water before spending any more money on fishes. A water softener should help. Mixing unsoftened tap water with softened water at about 50:50 should get things in the right ball park. Are we talking about a reverse osmosis unit or a domestic water softener? If the latter, check with the manufacturer whether or not the water produced is safe with aquarium fish. It isn't always safe, because at least some designs replace the hardness with salt, which is why the drinking tap is connected to the mains water and not the softened water.

I don't know what "glass headstanders" are, but the catfish would be safe with the spiny eels. My issue with them is that the catfish could potentially eat all the food you put out for the eels. That said, doradid catfish are pretty dopey, so if you stick enough bloodworms in the tank, you might get away with it. Bloodworms, tubifex, and especially live earthworms are the way to go with spiny eels. They love earthworms as much as life itself.

Some extra advice: spiny eels do best in tanks with a sandy substrate. Fire eels and tyre tracks are big enough that as adults it doesn't matter too much, but small specimens of these species, as well as the smaller species like peacocks, should only be kept in tanks with a soft substrate. The issue is burrowing: they scratch themselves on gravel, and then infections set in, and then they die.

Cheers, Neale

Ok, to answer a couple of your questions.. I have a domestic water softener and I use Potasium Chloride as opposed to Sodium Chloride. I've checked with the manufacturer already and they said it is fine for aquariums, I've had this installed for over a year now, I've been using it with my aquariums for about 3 months but I have not tried any eels in that time period. I have not been mixing the water with unsoftened tap water but I certainly can if it will help. I did test my water the other day and hardness was 0.

Glass Headstanders are Charax gibbosus, a cool looking small predatory fish (my avatar).

When I did have the eels I hand fed them to ensure they got their food, and I had a sandy substrate in each aquarium although they never burrowed in the sand, they just hid in caves.

I've kept bichirs before but ended up selling them as I took a few tanks down. I love bichirs too but I would love to have a nice looking fire eel in the tank as a conversation piece.. I don't want to give up on them so I'm trying to figure out if it's my water that is killing them or something else.

 

[nmonks]

Zero hardness in an aquarium isn't great either. What's the pH and the hardness? And is the pH stable? In very soft water the pH can vary wildly, and many fish find that unpleasant. For spiny eels I'd be aiming for pH 7, and a hardness around 100 mg/ CaCO3. That should give you enough water chemistry stability. Even pH 7.5 and 300 mg/ CaCO3 would be fine, but anything less than pH 6.5, 50 mg/ CaCO3 would be, in my opinion, risky with these large fishes. Because you have water with lots of salts, just not hardness salts, you need to do a CaCO3 (or carbonate) test, not a general hardness test, which could be confusing and inaccurate. You can buy CaCO3 (or KH) test kits easily enough, and some of the dip-strip tests have both general hardness (GH) and CaCO3 (KH) tests on the one strip.

Spiny eels don't always burrow in the sand, but they like to have the option, and if they choose to, they'll scratch themselves if it isn't sand. Some of this is size-dependant, and big fire eels and tyre tracks are fine with gravel. They also like floating plants, in fact anything that provides them with shade.

To be honest, I'd concentrate on getting ideal water chemistry before worrying about the eels. I agree, they're lovely fish, but my gut feeling is that the water chemistry is the problem, not the eels.

Cheers, Neale

 

[Mudfrog]

Yea, thats what I'm trying to do, I need to get my param's good first.

My softened tap water:

PH - 7.8 (came down some)
GH - 0
KH - 17

I used a Tetratest liquid test kit with 5cc/ml of water.

My tapwater without the softner:

GH - 33
KH - 18
PH - 8.3

 

[nmonks]

I don't understand why the softend water has a KH of 17 and the tap water has a KH of 18. Doesn't seem very different. But the GH has dropped a lot, obviously, so maybe that's how these things work. I don't have a water softener, so I'm a bit out of my depth here. Perhaps someone else can help.

Anyway, I'd simply add a 50:50 mix of the two types of water on your next water change, and see how things go. I'd also be tempted to add some peat to the filter. Sera (and other companies I'm sure) make this excellent peat granulate that buffers and acidifies the water. In fairly hard water it won't do a huge amount, but it lowers the pH a bit. Be sure and follow the instructions, and test the pH daily after installing it for the first time. It's very easy to mess up the pH and kill off everything! Use less rather than more.

Oh, and one alternative we haven't considered is simply getting a Lake Tanganyika spiny eel. They are traded, though you may need to hunt about a bit. They would do very well in the raw tapwater you have. Some are very attractive fish, though predatory.

Cheers, Neale

 

[Mudfrog]

Hmm.. you might have something there.. Aethiomastacembelus ellipsifer is very attractive although I've never even heard of it much less seen them for sale in the US. I do love most African fish so I'm sure I could put something together African themed.

Pic

 

[nmonks]

The African species are all Mastacembelus spp now, and at least somewhat available in the trade. I see them a few times a year. So perhaps worth asking your local store to get them in for you? Otherwise you may have some luck asking around the African Cichlids section, as these species are sometimes kept by cichlid enthusiasts as oddballs for Tanaganyika tanks.

Cheers, Neale

 

[Canis-Equus]

Not got much to add to what nmonks has said.

I have 6 spiney eels, 5 different species and mine are all fine, some easier to feed than others (some far too bloody easy and would quite like to eat other fish bigger than themselves).....

My water is very soft and acidic, they are kept in planted tanks on a sand substrate and are fed a variety of foods.

With deaths occuring THAT fast, its got to be your water, also your nitrate reading seems quite high, mines half that on a bad week, usually barely anything.

Hth

Em

 

[Mudfrog]

Not got much to add to what nmonks has said.

I have 6 spiney eels, 5 different species and mine are all fine, some easier to feed than others (some far too bloody easy and would quite like to eat other fish bigger than themselves).....

My water is very soft and acidic, they are kept in planted tanks on a sand substrate and are fed a variety of foods.

With deaths occuring THAT fast, its got to be your water, also your nitrate reading seems quite high, mines half that on a bad week, usually barely anything.

Hth

Em

Nitrate of 12 is high? I disagree with that, but I do not have any live plants in my tank unlike you so that would probably explain why yours is so low.

I found a Mastacembelus ellipsifer but I'm not really ready to pay $75 for an eel if I'm not 100% sure it's the hard water that is killing the others..

 

[Canis-Equus]

Ahhh, lol yes it would, all my tanks are fairly heavily planted.

Request the water quality details from the shop youve bought the previous eels from and compare to your own?

As far as i can tell, the asian spiney eels come from habitats with a LOT of plants, and dead leaf matter in the water, so it would be very acidic, much like amazon conditions (and that how i keep mine with much success.....).

The only other thing and i am scraping the bottom of the barrel here, is they are not tolerant of medications and water treatments such as snail killer, fish medications etc. Its possible there are other water treatments they wont tolerate, perhaps something you use to change the parameters?

Em

 

[nmonks]

Don't get too hung up on water chemistry. It really couldn't matter less. Asian and riverine African spiny eels come from a variety of water conditions from soft and acidic through to low-end brackish. Many species are known to be highly adaptable. The lacustrine African species may be different, and certainly should be provided with water chemistry similar to that of the lakes from which they are taken.

On the other hand, diet, water quality, substrate type, compatibility with tankmates, and escapes are all key issues when keeping spiny eels. Above all else, I'd be checking nitrite daily for a week, to see if things are as stable as you think they are. I'd also do a pH test first thing in morning and last thing at night, to see if the pH is stable. To be absolutely honest, I'd ignore the home water softener as a source of water for the aquarium: home water softeners DO NOT remove minerals completely, but replace the ones that fur up pipes (e.g., calcium carbonate) with different ones (e.g., sodium salts). Ordinary municipal water should be absolutely fine, and at least you'll know what the minerals are!

Cheers, Neale