Mystery illness in the Aquarium

[mark4785]

For approximately 3 weeks one of my smaller female Discus has become pale, has stopped eating formulated crisp food (it will still consume blood worm directly from a tweezer but will not seek out food), keeps separating itself from the rest and approx. 2 weeks ago it was defecating white faeces.

The above symptoms started immediately after my other larger discus died when it got stuck behind the outlet spray bar. It had possibly been dead in the water for 12 hours.

Given that one fish had died prior to the other fish becoming sick, I presumed that it was perhaps sick from a bacterial infection rather than a parasitic one. As such I treated the tank with 1 course of Waterlife Myxazin which contains: Benzalkonium chloride 0.64% w/w, formaldehyder 0.24% w/w, malachite green 0.17% w/w, acriflavine hydrochlodire 0.11% w/w. During this 5-day course of treatment the fish has continued to be hand-fed bloodworms and eat a couple of Tetra crisps out of many but is still pale and separating itself.

As Myxazin was ineffective I switched to treating with Waterlife Sterazin containing (Acriflavine, Malachite Green and Piperazine Citrate) 3 days later. I completed this course of treatment. There has still been no improvement in the fish. I have also tried putting the internal 7w UV filtration bulb on which can kill some bacteria/parasites; again no improvement in the fish in response to this.

I am in the process of waiting for Esha Hexamita treatment to arrive as i'm now beginning to presume the fish may have this. In the meantime, I've started treating with Sterazin again.

I would appreciate it if anybody knows what the best solution is to this issue as I feel the fish has been suffering long enough and it is also quite expensive to be employing ineffectual treatments.


Water stats:
Ammonia: 0 ppm/L
Nitrite: 0 ppm/L
Nitrate: 15 ppm/L
Temperature: 29 Degrees C
pH: 6.5

 

[Colin_T]

You probably have drug resistant bacteria in the tank now due to all the chemicals you added. Your fish are also at a high risk of developing cancer in the future due to the malachite green, which is a carcinogen (causes cancer). It's preferable to identify the problem before adding things to the tank.

Read the following link for stringy white poop in fish.

What to do if your fish has Stringy White Poop.

Fish do a stringy white poop for several reasons. 1) Internal Bacterial Infections causes the fish to stop eating, swell up like a balloon, breath heavily at the surface or near a filter outlet, do stringy white poop, and die within 24-48 hours of showing these symptoms. This cannot normally be...

www.fishforums.net

 

[mark4785]

You probably have drug resistant bacteria in the tank now due to all the chemicals you added. Your fish are also at a high risk of developing cancer in the future due to the malachite green, which is a carcinogen (causes cancer). It's preferable to identify the problem before adding things to the tank.

Read the following link for stringy white poop in fish.

What to do if your fish has Stringy White Poop.

Fish do a stringy white poop for several reasons. 1) Internal Bacterial Infections causes the fish to stop eating, swell up like a balloon, breath heavily at the surface or near a filter outlet, do stringy white poop, and die within 24-48 hours of showing these symptoms. This cannot normally be...

www.fishforums.net

Having read the link you gave I can see the most likely issue is an internal worm since the fish is eating bloodworms and not losing weight. This is by no means an identification; how do you propose I positively identify the cause? I don't know what I'm looking for under a microscope for instance.

The information in that thread has basically reintroduced the concept that it could be a range of diseases.

 

[Colin_T]

If you put some of her poop on a slide and look at it under a microscope you might see protozoan parasites or worms eggs. Other than that, you look at the three main causes for stringy white poop.

1) The fish did not suddenly bloat up overnight, stop eating and do a stringy white poop and then die within 24-48 hours of bloating. This rules out an internal bacterial infection.

2) The fish has gone off its food, it's eating but not as much as normal. The problem has been going on for a couple of weeks. The fish might have lost some weight over a few weeks if it's not eating well, and it does a stringy white poop. This is typical for an internal protozoan infection.

3) Piperazine treats some thread/ round worms. Fish with intestinal worms don't go off their food. They eat normally and slowly lose weight over a period of months, and they do a stringy white poop. If the fish are fed really well, they might not lose any weight, especially if they only have a few worms in them. Likewise, fish with only a few worms don't always do a stringy white poop.

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The fish in question is a discus, which if it came from Asia, are renown for internal protozoan infections that cause the fish to go off their food, lose weight, do a stringy white poop and die a few weeks later. The fish could also be getting bullied by the other discus in the tank and when discus give up, they usually die.

I would say the fish has an internal protozoan infection and should be treated with Metronidazole or something like that. Unfortunately, Metronidazole is an anti-biotic and you will probably have to contact a vet to get some in the UK. The vet will probably want to see the fish and examine some of its poop.

I would move the fish into a different tank so it isn't being bullied.
Raise the water temperature to 30-32C.
Increase aeration/ surface turbulence to maximise the oxygen levels in the water.
Try feeding the fish throughout the day and offer it anything it will eat.
If it improves after this then it is possibly related to bullying but you will have to monitor the feeding and poop.

If the fish does not improve after a couple of days alone, then look for some medication and hope for the best.

If you do get some medication, I would treat the main tank as well as the hospital tank (assuming you move the fish into a different tank).

 

[mark4785]

I have added Metronidazole to the aquarium. The fish is still eating bloodworms and as such is not and probably will not lose any weight. When I fed it yesterday it eat around 20 bloodworms. It also eat 2 Tetra Crisps; it spat about a tenth of them out.

I have noticed that the Bolivian Ram that I have in there now has Popeye, hence me putting the metronidazole in the main aquarium since it will treat this ailment too. This issue seems to have come about after I did a water change.

I am going to try doing smaller 25% water changes instead of 50% water changes on the presumption that the fresh water is causing too much of a drastic change in pH for them to cope with.

 

[Colin_T]

The pH, GH and KH of your water supply should not be changing much if any.

Are you adding something to the tank water to lower the pH?

Do you test the pH on the tap water and the tank water?
If you do test the tap water, check the pH straight out of the tap, then check that same sample 24 hours later and see if there's a difference.

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Pop eye disease in fish is usually caused by poor water quality or tanks that have lots of rotting matter in them, or an injury (scratch) that causes inflammation and that lets bacteria into the damaged tissue.

This normally heals up without any problems if the tank is clean.

Salt can be used to help some cases of pop eye.

Metronidazole is unlikely to help with eye problems. But since you have an internal problem in the tank as well, you may as well treat the tank and hopefully treat both problems together.

 

[mark4785]

Yes I’m adding dissolved co2 from a co2 diffuser to lower the pH for the purpose of growing plants. The tap water pH is around 7.5 while the tank pH is 6.0 to 6.5.

I did a large 80% water change yesterday before the co2 diffuser came on so the pH of the tank water and tap were more similar.

I have added a Flubendazole wormer plus treatment to the water to treat the problem fish. It’s described as a treatment you ought to add monthly “for problem free fish keeping“ so I figured I would use it on the off-chance that the previous metronidazole treatment was ineffective.

The discus and bolivian ram are continuing to eat bloodworms. They are ambivalent when it comes to eating formulated food like crisps.

 

[Colin_T]

I have added a Flubendazole wormer plus treatment to the water to treat the problem fish. It’s described as a treatment you ought to add monthly “for problem free fish keeping“ so I figured I would use it on the off-chance that the previous metronidazole treatment was ineffective.

You don't want to deworm fish every month like you do with dogs or cats. With fish you treat the tank once a week for 4 weeks and then stop using the dewormer. Then the only treat the fish for worms if they show symptoms again and they shouldn't if you feed them clean food.

If you use a dewormer on a regular basis (say once a month), you eventually end up with drug resistant worms that can't be treated.

 

[mark4785]

I don’t know what the manufacturer is meaning then since they proclaim the exact opposite. I’m guessing it is a money-generating ploy for them.

Update: The discus is back to fully eating formulated food and is actually displaying pairing behaviour with a male discus. Earlier in the year she had displayed this pairing behaviour and deposited a healthy set of eggs on well over 15 separate occasions. It’s really good to see her acting more normally.

The Bolivian ram’s pop-eye has also subsided. It is actively seeking out food again.

I now have a net to hand to remove any excess food and have pruned back the valis so no food gets stuck between the leaves. This should prevent any future bacterial infections.

 

[Colin_T]

I don’t know what the manufacturer is meaning then since they proclaim the exact opposite. I’m guessing it is a money-generating ploy for them.

A lot of companies that make fish keeping gear tend to think about the money side of things rather than the fish or long term effects on the environment. It happens with filters too, and so many companies tell customers to replace filter media every month, which is great for the company's wallet but not for the fish.

One of the companies sells a broad spectrum medication that allegedly treats fungus, bacteria, viruses and protozoan infections. The ingredients in the medication are anti-biotics that only treat bacteria. When I contacted the company about the product they said something along the lines of most people don't know the difference between bacteria, fungus or protozoan infections and they were not making false or misleading statements. I personally think they are but there's not much I can do about it because they aren't based in my country. Not that my country's department of consumer protection would do anything, they think there is nothing wrong with companies selling corn flour that is made from wheat and contains no corn.

Any way, it's good the discus appears to be getting better. Feed her up and do lots of water changes for the next month so she can recover.

 

[mark4785]

Any way, it's good the discus appears to be getting better. Feed her up and do lots of water changes for the next month so she can recover.

She has gone back to just eating bloodworm but she has remained colourful and the poo is jet black so I’m not sure what to glean from that.

A male Bolivian Ram is lunging at her quite often as its territorial so I suspect this is now causing her to be selective with eating.

I’m going to either sell the Ram or setup a separate tank for him. Once hes out of the Discus tank I can safely up the temperature above 28 degrees C which I hope will stimulate the female Discus to eat a full range of foods.

 

[mark4785]

UPDATE: I have removed the Bolivian ram from the tank and have closely watched the female discus over the last few days. She is swimming slower than all the other discus and despite formulated food raining down from the surface she is not showing any interest. She eat 50% of the bloodworms offered and spat out the rest.

Can a discus live properly on a diet of just bloodworms as it is not showing any signs that it will begin eating anything else?

 

[Colin_T]

Can a discus live properly on a diet of just bloodworms as it is not showing any signs that it will begin eating anything else?

No, they eventually suffer from malnutrition.

See if it will take live or frozen brineshrimp, and raw or cooked prawn/ shrimp. Mozzie larvae and live Daphnia usually get fish eating too, due to their movement.

 

[mark4785]

No, they eventually suffer from malnutrition.

See if it will take live or frozen brineshrimp, and raw or cooked prawn/ shrimp. Mozzie larvae and live Daphnia usually get fish eating too, due to their movement.

She and the rest of the fish don’t seem to recognise frozen brineshrimp as food. When you say feed cooked prawn presumably you mean to take small pellet-sized chunks from the centre and put those in?

 

[Colin_T]

Most pet shops sell live brineshrimp, try that.

Have a look for mosquito larvae in containers of water in the garden. Scoop them out with a fine mesh net and rinse under tap water, then add to the tank.

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Get some frozen prawn from a supermarket or fishing store (in the freezer section). Take them home and keep them in the freezer. Take one out and defrost it. Then remove the head, shell and gut (thin black tube in body) and throw these bits away. Use a pair of scissors to cut the remaining prawn tail into small bits and offer 1 or 2 pieces at a time. Feed until the fish are no longer full and remove uneaten food from the tank.

You can use a needle and thread and put a piece of prawn on the needle and slide it down the thread. Have a small knot at the end of the thread. Lower the prawn into the water and use the thread to jiggle it about. The knot on the end should stop it slipping off the thread but fish should be able to pull it off easily.