My poor lucifer one thing after the other white stuff in mouth

[Helpmylucifer]

Ok Colin so I did the salt just like u said the last thread and his fins are white still and much worse now he has white stuff in his mouth. U suspected protozoan so I used a medicate wonder shell hoping that would work but like I thought from the beginning I think its columnaries? Can you help or is it too late? What should I do to try to save my loach if possible? Omg I'm so sad! Can this be corrected or does this fish just have way to many problems?

 

[Colin_T]

It's preferable to just add new information to the original thread if the problem is still occurring. it makes it easier to follow and I can read it from the start.

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U suspected protozoan so I used a medicate wonder shell

What's a medicate wonder shell?

How long did you use the salt for?

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It's not Columnaris. The fish would be dead by now if it was.

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Apart from the white lip, the fish looks fine. The white lip looks like excess mucous.

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Why is the water green?

 

[FishGuest5123]

Colin_T is correct in the fact that there is a fast growing strain of Columnaris that can wipe out an entire tank in hours. However, there is also a slower growing strain of columnaris that can come on very slowly and symptoms progress slower. The slower strain can take a couple of weeks to kill a fish. I dealt with a slow strain. Since Lucifer appears to have a mouth fungus of some type, I lean towards Columnaris. If this was my fish, I would quarantine and treat with Seachem Kanaplex and API Furan-2. Use both and treat per directions. I wish you the very best. Please keep us posted as Lucifer is a beautiful fish. Columnaris highly contagious. Disinfect anything that comes in contact with Lucifer and wash your hands with a bleach mixture or aquarium salt mixture.

 

[Helpmylucifer]

Omg thank you so much, I was treating him and my yoyo loach the only 2 in the tank with kanaplex and furan2 for about 2 weeks a month ago before Collin had told me I shouldn't use antibiotics that he had body slime not columnaries. He advised me to treat with salt and if that didnt work treat for some type of protozoan. So I did the whole salt thing and got some medicated wonder shells for the protozoan and discontinued all antibiotics. He had been with no antibotics for about 3 weeks abd his fins got so much worse and then he got the mouth stuff that freaked me out not to mention he does have clear stringy poos sometimes so I thought that might be bacterial cuz I'm not going to lie I had no idea what I was doing when I 1st got these guys and wasnt keeping up with the tank maintenance as I should of been I read somewhere that once a month cleaning was sufficient but that was so not true. I feel horrible because it's totally my fault they are both sick. Anyways when I saw the mouth grossness I did a 75% water change and started treating with the kanaplex and furan2 again. My loach has white coloring on his side that is really hard to see in a video especially because of his color when I get home from work I will take a video of mr fiend my yoyo loach

 

[Helpmylucifer]

Deanasue you mentioned u have dealt with the slow moving strain before is kanaplex and furan2 the only antibotics to use or can I try combos of other ones only because I was using those 2 for some time and the white fins still were not getting better I just dosed my last dose of kanaplex last night so it sounds like a must I buy more

 

[FishGuest5123]

I wouldn’t mix any of them. Did you do a full, uninterrupted treatment of Kanamycin? If so then you may want to try copper sulfate or terramycin. I have not used these 2 but know of others that have.

 

[Colin_T]

It's not a bacterial infection. There is no damage to the fins or body and there would be if bacteria were eating the fish.

If you used Kanaplex (Kanamycin) and Furan 2 (Nitrofurazone and Furazolidone) and it didn't work before, it's not going to work now. These are anti-biotics that kill bacteria and if it was a bacterial infection, there should have been a major improvement after a few days of treatment and a complete cure after 2 weeks of medication.

If your fish have cream, white or grey patches on their body, it is excess mucous caused by poor water quality or a protozoan infection.

 

[FishGuest5123]

Colin, If OP did the complete treatment. That’s the question. We didn’t say it was a bacterial infection either. Possibly Columnaris. Your initial suggestion didn’t help. You always say everything is excess mucous. Interesting. I have never had a fish with “ excess mucous”.

 

[Colin_T]

Columnaris is a bacterial infection.

Fish kept in clean tanks with good water rarely if ever show excess mucous because they aren't stressed out.

 

[FishGuest5123]

I am aware that Columnaris is bacterial. I guess I misinterpreted what you had said or worded mine wrong. I just don’t see excess mucous on this fish. Why only on the mouth? Many of these fish are from clean tanks so why so many with “excess mucous”. The only fish I had with heavy body slime or excess mucous was as a child and the slime hung off the fish’s entire body. When I Google “excess slime in freshwater fish”. I keep coming up with Slime Disease which is usually involved in parasitic disease according to info. Interestingly, the recommended treatment is Kanaplex or Furan-2.

 

[Colin_T]

I just don’t see excess mucous on this fish. Why only on the mouth?

Post 1 of the thread at the following link has a video with the angelfish. About 11 seconds into the video the OP zooms in on the upper back of the angelfish and you can see a cream coloured area on one side. That is excess mucous, probably caused by external protozoa.
https://www.fishforums.net/threads/...w-white-spot-on-my-angel.454238/#post-3837091

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The only fish I had with heavy body slime or excess mucous was as a child and the slime hung off the fish’s entire body. When I Google “excess slime in freshwater fish”. I keep coming up with Slime Disease which is usually involved in parasitic disease according to info. Interestingly, the recommended treatment is Kanaplex or Furan-2.

Dr Google is not always the best when it comes to identifying things. I don't recall coming across any diseases called Slime Disease in my fish health books. As for it being caused by parasites, anything that uses another organism and gives nothing in return, is a parasite. This can be intestinal worms, external protozoan infections, Anchorworm, fish lice, fungus or harmful bacteria.

Anything that irritates the skin of the fish will cause the fish to produce excess mucous. Normally it's caused by external protozoan infections, but poor water quality and chemicals in the water will also cause fish to produce more mucous.

External protozoan infections generally attack the dorsal side of the fish first and start off in small areas and slowly spread outwards. The infected areas appear as cream, white or grey patches on the body.

If fish are kept in bad water or exposed to chemicals, they produce excess mucous over their entire body, fins, eyes and face. The fish get cloudy eyes, a white edge to the tail and fins, and a cream, white or grey appearance over their entire body. This is quite noticeable on dark fish like black mollies, who almost look like they have a semi transparent layer of white cream over their body.

As for using Kanaplex and Furan 2 to treat "Slime Disease", you really need to identify the problem before adding chemicals or anti-biotics, and the information on Dr Google should say this. Throwing anti-biotics or any chemicals into a tank with fish that are producing excess mucous caused by poor water quality won't do anything. Adding the wrong medications/ chemicals to treat diseases might fix some secondary infections but won't necessarily fix the main disease.

 

[FishGuest5123]

Interesting. On Safari ( actually not Google), all I can find is Slime Disease. Nothing on excess mucous. Oh well! Just trying educate my self a little more.

 

[Helpmylucifer]

So just to make it clear I used salt for a little longer than a week and then did a water change and added a medicated wonder shell which was the only thing I could find safe for loaches to treat protozoan problems. I used those for about 2.5 weeks and as soon as the last one wore off both fish started flashing like crazy idk if the treatment wasnt long enough or what? But then lucifer got the white mouth and I it threw me completely off cuz I cant treat that while treating for the other but from what I was reading the white mouth is a more serious problem idk I'm lost I think I'm giving up on the whole fish aquarium hobby.
Oh and medicated wondershell is malachite green and some other stuff completely safe for all fish

 

[Colin_T]

If you had an appropriate dose of Malachite Green in the tank for 2.5 weeks, it should have killed any external protozoan infections.

According to their website, there are several medicated wonder shells available. One is for fresh water and contains Malachite Green, Acriflavin, Copper Sulfate and Methylene Blue. There is one for salt water, which only contains Malachite Green.

There are apparently 3 different sizes of medicated wonder shell (small, medium & large).

They don't provide a dose rate for the small shell but the medium uses 1 shell for a 15-35 gallon aquarium, and a large shell per 40-60 gallons of water.

I have not heard of or used the medicated wonder shell so can't be 100% it works. And the dose rates are quite variable, which isn't necessarily the best when trying to treat something for a disease. The shells might have controlled any external protozoans on the fish but not cured them completely. Then after the medication was finished, the protozoans have started to build up in numbers and make the fish rub on objects.

FYI, whilst Malachite Green is commonly used to treat external protozoan infections, it is not that safe for fish or animals. If it is overdosed it kills fish very quickly, and it is classed as a carcinogen (causes cancer). You should always wash your hands with soapy water after handling any fish medications or working in the tank.

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How long has the angelfish had the white lips for?

 

[Helpmylucifer]

Okay so malachite green is my next step can I just buy Kordons is that the same? I cant order anything online at the moment so I'm going to have to find it in a store. He has had his white lips for about 4 days now it is really effecting him to the point he just spits out his brine shrimps when he normally use to go crazy for them. He gets super excited when I put it in the tank and he tries to eat he holds it in his mouth for awhile then just spits it out. It's super sad he also has long clear poop which I have no idea what that means. Sometimes it will be like normal color with a long clear string looking thing that wont come off to easily.