My New Tank - Be Gentle With Me I'm A Virgin Poster!

[staffy3453]

Be Gentle With Me I'm A Virgin Poster! didnt think a piece of paper from richard branson could make such a good tank!

 

[Underwurlde]

After a 5sec Google search it would appear that you have fish colour enhancing / marine photosynthesis tubes (Philips) Combined with plant type bulbs (Slyvania) that appear to be TriPhosphor judging by the colour graph as it has good colour peaks (for plant growing) in Red & Blue and a useless peak in Green (one would expect a yellow peak).

So I guess you have a great combo of tubes there.

Tubes will be useless of course if > 1 year old and should ideally be replaced every 6 months.

Andy

PS I'm up late because I have just repaired an XDA-Exec from ebay (bargain at £85) and stuck TomTom on it and paired it to a cheapo BlueTooth solar GPS. Bingo, TomTom sat nav ready for my trip to Barcelona in 2 weeks time. I'm-a-buzzzin' - It's great when u get summnt for next to nowt! Thought I'd just show off and share that with everyone!

 

[GazinSussex]

Good news - 4 weeks in (I think- kinda lost track) and this mornings readings again for the 4th day in a row are Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 20 so I guess that hopefully means that I'm officially cycled!!

3 of my Zebra danios are getting awfully fat! Either they are just quicker to the food than the others or...

Bought 10 baby bronze corys from the LFS owners son on the weekend and they seem real happy they are really tiny so they are able to sit on the tips of the plants and take in the view -they really are cuties!

Downside is, most of the plants are looking a bit sorry for themselves - the free cycling lunch is now over! Going to post in the Plated section to get some advice on CO2 as I think that might be the next step.

Thanks for all the help guys!!

 

[GazinSussex]

Well all was going swimmingly until I turned the lights on 3 days ago and the tank had turned milky. Test results, fish, plants all going well, so a quick search revealed that it was an algae bloom, as it got worse the longer the lights were on. Tried removing the carbon from the filter and replacing it with a whole pack of filter wool but nada. So have been keeping the lights off for most of the day (the tank gets some very indirect sunlight) and its slowly starting to improve. Now I guess this is caused by an imbalance of some kind. Ammonia - 0, Nitrite - 0, Nitrate 15-20, pH stabilised at approx 6.8-7.0. I dont have a phosphate test so Im guessing that may be part of the problem? Do you think that some phoszorb or similar may help? I got pretty desperate at one point and nearly bought a UV steriliser but that is treating the symptom not the cause. I have loads of stem plants that are all looking great and growing well. Also what I think is a Wisteria that has doubled in size, bought some red Camboba (according the the LFS) to go with the Rotala. Also following the fabulous pinned thread on riccia - bought some off of ebay and used a couple of parts of broken terracotta pots to form two curved mounds, which once they have filled out will show off on that thread! One word of caution, the riccia arrived while I was at work and my lovely wife being ever helpful put it in the tank, unfortunately I have the spray bar from my canister filter angled up to agitate but not break the surface and the flow from this which the Danios love btw forced the riccia to the other end of the tank and straight into the inlet of the filter making it look like a 1980's microphone! So removed it all from the tank and put it in an ice-cream pot of tank water on the windowsill in the sun - it does bulk up fast!!
Sorry long waffling post - any help with the algae would be gratefully received!!

Gaz

 

[Lurks]

Matey,

I see a lot of parallels in your voyage of discovery to one I undertook not so long ago returning to the hobby. Heck, if I'm not mistaken that's also exactly the same tank. The chap earlier that commented on the light configuration is spot on too. Each strip has a daylight and growlight-type tubes in it.

The tank is very tall. This presents a real challenge in the sort of context you're finding with plant height. I found the same with mine. In retrospect for a tank such as this landscaping the substrate into tiers with a raised background is really the way to go.

I can't really be of much help concerning your water issues/algae etc because you have a very different set up than me. I went for a blackwater biotype and put in rather a lot more, finer natural substrate, loads of bogwood and planted very heavily indeed. I too did a fish cycle but with, I'm ashamed to say, dwarf cichlids in the mix which were of course far too delicate for that treatment and all died as a result. Months later though, and countless books, websites and forums, I'm hopefully a lot better informed than I was to start. I too couldn't believe the amount of nonsense information spouted by LFS staff.

What I would say is this, I actually wish I could go back and do my main monster tank (same size as yours) again to some degree. I set up a second smaller tank and achieved everything I wanted to with the benefit of that experience and hindsight. If you haven't stocked heavily yet, I would put it out there that it's not too late to get in and make some changes before you have a very large established aquarium which is much harder to work with.

I'm not saying you can't fix what you have, sounds like a simple algae bloom as you say. Which incidentally is likely to be excessive phosphorus and nitrogen in the water - I wonder if you ended up putting in any fertiliser, in the water, or in the substrate? If that stuff is still loose on the bottom, it's going to be tricky to fix. If it's not, then a really big water change and chucking in loads of hungry plants temporarily like cabomba should do it. Two pronged attack: Try deal with the excessive nutrients in the water and secondly, cut back on light. A lot. Does that get sunlight from a window? Filtration isn't really going to help. I think if you went down the route of UV, you'd clear the water alright but you'd get the most evil stringy algae in its place. Better to tackle the cause.

 

[GazinSussex]

Thanks Lurks - glad Im not alone. I bought the tank/filter/lights/heater as a set second hand off of Ebay for 250 quid and overall was delighted but it was a bit bigger than I anticipated!! Thankfully the floor took the weight - after all its just like 4 blokes my size standing in the corner of the room - or so my builder said!
The tank was set up as a marine tank - rather alarmingly the guy selling it proudly boasted that he hadnt 'had' to do any maintainance for 3 months the filter was so good - scary really!!
I agree 100% that in hindsight I would have done things differently - with a different substrate for a start! Big problem and the reason I didnt go marine was simply the cost - I dread to think what a bed of Laterite or similar would have cost.
I have seriously considered breaking down the tank and starting again but the question is - can I do this with the fish still in situ as I dont have another tank to keep them in - also would I be back to day 1 on the cycling? I suppose I could run the filter on a bucket of tank water to keep it going. Also where can you get bogwood big enough not to look lost?

As far as the light goes - the lights are now on for about 3 hours a day as I was worried about the plants, the tank is in a room with a west facing window that never gets any direct light.
I must admit I only got the basic tests done on our tap water, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate pH etc never thought to get it tested for other stuff. The substrate is just small rounded gravel.

Will check when I get home tonight but the bloom did seem to be on the wane - fingers crossed!!

Thanks for the comments though - really appreciated!

Gaz

 

[Lurks]

That's a great deal, crumbs I bought mine at full whack. That said I built my second tank set up by getting it off ebay, so I like to think I'm getting wiser with the 'ol cash.

Hmm, I think you probably could do it in situi really. I mean the worst you'd do is stir it up. I think I'd be tempted just to put them in something temporary and drain most of the water out just to kind of make things easier. With regards to cycling, no actually. The real part that needs to get established is the filter. So, you wont get a full cycle again unless you end up filling the tank with tap water which will end up shoving enough chlorine through the filter to pretty much kill off most of the bacteria. Assuming you turned it on right away. If you just filled it up with tap water and then chucked in some anti chlorine stuff (best option really), you really should be good to go.

I completely pre-cycled a new tank by just changing some of the filter media with the media from an established aquarium. Amonia/nitrite never shifted from dot.

I didn't mean to sound like I think you should re-do the tank or anything, I just mentioned it because it looks like it's an option for you where as it pretty much isn't for me. Certainly if I was doing it again here's what I'd do:

1. I'd use keep that gravel you have in it but I'd use it as a layering to get the height up for setting up landscape tiering.
2. I'd whack in some plastic and rocks to build the background tiers.
3. I'd poor some sand-like substrate on top of the whole thing. It looks more natural, it's better for corys etc to snuffle through.
4. I'd whack a whole pile of bogwood down on top of the whole thing and make the substrate tiers less obvious.
5. I'd go nuts planting it up. http/www.aquaticplants.eu.com/ for the win, seriously.

But that's just the view of a random guy on a forum right.

For a much better in-depth view of me building a tank with the benefit of hindsight of having set one up like you have, you might like to register on www.fish-keeper.com and look for a massive thread called Lurks new cichlid tank diary. I've done blow by blow piccies and detailed everything including research, sourcing plants, the lot. I should probably transplant that thread here really since this is a much more lively forum but I'm lazy.

Gaz you didn't mention fertilizer at all. Got any ideas about that? Your algae bloom puzzles me a bit.

 

[A5tra_G]

Looks great to me

 

[Dave Spencer]

First off, nice looking tank.

If your water has gone milky, then it is most likely a bacterial bloom, not algae. It often happens in immature tanks, but should clear up of its own accord.

If you have fast growing plants that are pearling (giving off O2 bubbles), then your tank will be almost certainly cycled. I have high tech planted tanks that never cycled at all. The rapid growth of the plants instantly stripped the water of any Ammonia, so I could add fish virtually straight away.

There is no need to change your substrate, as there are many successful planted tanks with an inert substrate. The key will be to have a well fertilised water column.

Nitrates and phosphates do not cause algae and don`t let anyone tell you otherwise. I fertilise my three planted tanks with N and P and have no algae related issues. If I wanted algae, all I have to do is make any one of the plant nutrients become deficient, stunt the growth of my plants and voila! Algae needs a germination trigger, usually light and/or Ammonia or a failing plant biomass.

If your plants are only getting three hours of light, then this is not enough. Why have you chosen three hours? Plants should have something around a ten hour photoperiod.

How many Watts of light do you have? I roughly calculate the tank volume to be 100USG. CO2 could well be an issue for this tank. Light is the biggest driver for plant growth, with CO2 coming in next. Under some circumstances plant growth can increase ten fold with CO2 (which can turn out to be a monumental PITA), but it is your light levels that will determine if it is vital or not.

A planted tank filter shouldn`t have carbon in it, and forget about adding anything to remove phosphates.

In order to maintain your plants successfully, which you seem to already have a knack for, then your mindset should be on what your plants need, not what algae doesn`t. Algae and plants require the same nutrients, but algae is far more responsive to any changes or deficiencies that will slow stunt your plants. Look after your plants needs, keep them healthy and growing, and algae will hate you for it.

In terms of creating a look for your tank, stick with the fast growing stems for the first three or four months to stabilise the tank and see off any inevitable algae issues early on, then think about its final look and what plants you would like to add. Stems are usually best left to grow to the surface before their first trim, and you can replant the off cuts if you wish. After this, regular trimming will result in nice bushes of stems.

Try to keep just a few plant types in relatively neat bunches, rather than several different types scattered all over the tank. You could consider adding a grassy foreground plant such as Echinodorus tenellus or an Eleocharis sp.

Dave.

P.S. If your discoloured water does actually turn out to be green water then a UV sterilser will clear it, as has been mentioned.

 

[Biulu]

If you'd wish to make changes, you could put your fish in a bucket, using the water from your tank. Add the filter too, if you are going to take a long time. Once you're done, re-introduce the fish. As long as you don't change all the water, they should be fine.

 

[Lurks]

Nitrates and phosphates do not cause algae and don`t let anyone tell you otherwise.

Eh? In all due defference to your experience this is a pretty well understood biological principal and not some flight of fancy.

I fertilise my three planted tanks with N and P and have no algae related issues. If I wanted algae, all I have to do is make any one of the plant nutrients become deficient, stunt the growth of my plants and voila! Algae needs a germination trigger, usually light and/or Ammonia or a failing plant biomass.

Depending on the type of algae or blue/green you need an unbalanced ratio of nitrogen and phosphate in the water. Around 16:1 being the Redfield ratio and which generally corresponds to a balanced system with little algae, much lower you get blue-green, much higher you get green. Green algae being the most common is directly the result of an excess of nitrogen in the water. It doesn't just appear randomly. It's true it's not just the actual level of phosphorus and nitrogen but because of the ratio effect and potential sources of nitrogen, it tends to be that if you fertilise you can upset the ratio towards nitrogen heavy. Of course actual aquarium fertilisers, tabs, that kind of thing are specifically formulated with this kind of thing in mind. Conversely I had a friend that managed to turn his tank dark green in two days by chucking in liquid garden fertiliser in the belief he thought it would help the plants.

There's two circumstances whereby you can expect to see a green algae bloom. Something my marine biologist late mother schooled me in when I was just a boy. Firstly if lots of fish were added to an uncycled tank. Green algae vastly prefers amonia rather than nitrate from a cycled tank. Seems unlikely without using a type of fertiliser since I can't think he chucked in a lot of fish stock without it cycling at all. The second case being a slower bloom, the sort you see in in-expert aquarist tanks where they haven't changed water for ages, nitrate levels are high. Both heavily influenced by light of course.

I didn't want to go into amateur scientist mode at risk of sounding like a bit of a nobber, but another reason for using sandy substrates is that it introduces a good level of silicates. This tends to result in a diatom growth rather than an algae growth. Diatoms being easier to clean, more pleasant to look at and readily munched up by lovely fish like otocinclus. You take a look at a tank using sandy substrate and you'll tend to notice diatoms being prevalent. You look at those aquarist gravel type arrangements and they tend to be plagued by various forms of green algae. Depending on other stuff. Maybe it's a preference thing but I'll take the diatoms every time. I suppose you could add silicates somehow but I wouldn't know how to go about that.

Using a UV unit in a planted tank is in my view a fundamentally bad idea. It tends to oxidize all sorts of handy plant nutrients also. I don't think there's any bloom where it's not healthier to bring under control by hitting the root causes or waiting for things to sort themselves out.

Course milky would imply bacterial, as you say, since he specifically didn't say green. Which is something I know less about but I suspect it'll much through any excess food and die off rapidly enough unless anyone knows different? I've never seen it myself.

Biulu: Oh that's a good idea using the filter in a bucket. D'oh.

 

[alessasavoca]

hey gaz whereabouts are you in sussex?

 

[GazinSussex]

Thanks guys thats all really helpful.

I have 4 30w tubes so I guess thats only just over 1w/g, oddly even with such low light the red plants seem to be doing the best!
The only thing I can figure casting my mind back to my botany classes at university- and I am sure someone will correct me - is that red plants have carotenoids as their primary photopigment instead of chlorophyll a or b and so are mainly sensitive to blue/green light and maybe the two 'marine' bulbs are supplying this?

Normally the lights are on from 1pm till 11pm but in an attempt to rule out the algae I shortened the period to 3 hours for 3 days and maybe coincidentally its worked as the tank has cleared.

After reading some of the planted posts I removed the carbon and replaced it with filter wool.

I have placed some root tabs under the swords etc but its not making much of a difference - I might have to start fertilising - any suggestions for good additives - i really dont want to go down the EI route as large water changes - 30-40 gallons are a real PITA!!

Lurks - dont worry - you almost read my mind as I was thinking of redoing it!! I basically set it up and rammed as many plants in as I could hoping to find out which ones liked the tank setup and which ones didnt - but nothing has died so far - so that didnt really work!! I appreciate all the advice you guys have given - please continue as its always good to have different points of view!

See below for a pic of the tank this morning - its way better than it was!
Also my first attempt at a riccia mat - I want little mounds rather than a carpet so am using bits of broken teracotta pot!

Lastly Are female Zebra Danio's a different colour to males? I have 15 in total and 3 of them are less yellow that the other 12 and are rounder in the belly and a bit bigger - they are now getting chased by group of the yellow ones (males?) so maybe love is in the air!!

Cheers once again guys for all the comments and advice!!

Gaz








Crowborough so only just over the Kent border - where are you?

hey gaz whereabouts are you in sussex?

Sorry my reply appeared at the bootom of my post!

I am in Crowborough

 

[alessasavoca]

I'm in dorset now lol but i was in Rye

 

[Dave Spencer]

Nitrates and phosphates do not cause algae and don`t let anyone tell you otherwise.

Eh? In all due defference to your experience this is a pretty well understood biological principal and not some flight of fancy.

Hi Lurks, and welcome back to the hobby. You are probably more of a biologist than me and may get more out of this link than me. I find this to be an excellent, thought provoking website that is instrumental in moving the hobby forward and questioning many perceived notions.

http/www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-plan...30ppm-good.html

I didn't want to go into amateur scientist mode at risk of sounding like a bit of a nobber, but another reason for using sandy substrates is that it introduces a good level of silicates. This tends to result in a diatom growth rather than an algae growth. Diatoms being easier to clean, more pleasant to look at and readily munched up by lovely fish like otocinclus. You take a look at a tank using sandy substrate and you'll tend to notice diatoms being prevalent. You look at those aquarist gravel type arrangements and they tend to be plagued by various forms of green algae. Depending on other stuff. Maybe it's a preference thing but I'll take the diatoms every time. I suppose you could add silicates somehow but I wouldn't know how to go about that.

Are you suggesting that brown diatoms grow to the detrimental development of other algaes?

Using a UV unit in a planted tank is in my view a fundamentally bad idea. It tends to oxidize all sorts of handy plant nutrients also. I don't think there's any bloom where it's not healthier to bring under control by hitting the root causes or waiting for things to sort themselves out.

I use a UV steriliser in one of my fertilised plant tanks (simply because it came internally with the filter) and has no effect on inorganic fertilisation. I have two other planted tanks using the same fertilisation regime and no UV, to compare with.

I believe you are right about getting to the fundamental cause of the algae bloom, though. The algae that causes green water can be triggered by very low Ammonia levels, lower than most over the counter test kits can read. I would target this possibility.

This is what adding nitrates and phosphates to the water column has done for my Rotala rotundifolia:

Dave.

P.S. I hope I am not hijacking your thread, Gazin.....