My New 30gal

[the420buzz]

Yep, aware of the GT's personality and size needs. I'm sure they'll be fine for a bit in there though. Same with the Pleco.

Thanks for the info on the Gold Barbs. I was under the impression that any barbs would shoal/school with any barbs, but I'm guessing I was wrong now, haha. I plan to increase my Tiger Barbs soon (wishing I got more instead of the Gold Barbs), and hopefully add a couple more Gold Barbs so they can be happy.

The zipper loach is a neat little guy, does a good job digging through the gravel and picking food out. Very quick too. I just remembered the other reason that I took him out of the 30gal though. The GT's were beginning to take nips at him, so I'm sure he'd end up as quick food. Starting to think I may just keep him in the peaceful 15gal.

 

[Curiosity101]

Right...I'm going to say this as nicely as possible.

If you choose to disregard the advice being given, that is your choice. But you are making some pretty bad decisions...and you WILL encounter problems.

 

[the420buzz]

And I'll try to say this as nicely as possible.

(Assuming this is about the GTs/Pleco tank size issue)

I never once said I disregarded your advice. Hence why my sentence said 'for now' at the end. Just because they're in a 30gal for now, doesn't mean that they won't be upgraded in the future. It seems rude for you to assume, well, anything really without asking.

And if you're going to speak about stunting, please do direct me to the proper information and studies that have said that stunting causes problems, because from what I have read, it only stops the fish from growing temporarily. Nothing extremely negative happens to the fish, besides the fact that its smaller than it's normal size. Just as quick as they're put into a bigger tank, their growth resumes though.


EDIT: Here's one bit of discussion I've read from this forums own NMonks (who's advice, may I add, I'd trust before a lot of people on here (no offense meant to anyone). Here - 'Stunted Puffer?' Topic

 

[Curiosity101]

Stunted growth is when the fish physically appears to stop growing - either because of poor diet, poor water quality or by being in a tank that's too small for it. What happens is the physical form of the fish stops growing, but the internal organs don't, which means they become increasingly more compacted. The fish's spine could also be deformed by severe stunting and the fish die of massive internal organ failure (BEFORE they bust).

Stunting can be permanent, or temporary. In the case of being in a tank that's too small, mild stunting can be somewhat reversed if addressed quickly enough and the fish is capable of living a relatively normal life. Sadly, because the fish carry on as normal despite the pain (which they must do to avoid predation in the wild) when the fish dies, the beginner aquarist misinterprets the death as "old age".

This is exactly why it's important that the beginner goes out and gets a 30gal+ tank for fancy goldfish and 55+for commons! ANYTHING less than 30gal is risking stunted growth.

However, stunted growth can and does occur in an aquarium to such an extent as can’t be explained purely by the lack of seasonal rotation. Possible reasons for this phenomenon are:

1. Poor water quality. Goldfish produce a lot of waste and overcrowding will frequently lead to elevated Nitrate levels. While there is no conclusive scientific proof that high Nitrate levels lead directly to stunted growth the two have long been linked via circumstantial evidence.



1. Release of growth inhibiting pheromones. Since communication between fish via chemical agents (pheromones) was first demonstrated in 1932, this process has been suggested in many aspects of fish behaviour and development including the “crowding factor”. (manifested as an adverse effect on growth, survival and fecundity in dense populations)

In the wild the release of this pheromone serves to ensure the survival of the shoal, by limiting numbers and inhibiting growth so that the shoal can continue to survive in a hostile environment.
Some populations of the Crucian Carp, for example, have adapted to live in stunted dwarf populations in areas of the wild with a limited volume of water, very little food and possibly low oxygen.
The same can occur in the artificial “hostile environments” that we create in aquaria but often to an even more extreme degree.

1. Stress. Overcrowding combined with potential poor water quality will inevitably lead to some degree of stress, triggering the release of norepinephrine and epinephrine. Both of these hormones have been scientifically linked to the suppression of the growth hormone in GF.

Other chemical changes also occur when fish are stressed such as fluctuations in cortisol and glucose levels in the blood, while not proven, these changes may equally play a part in stunted growth.

1. Finally, there is the consideration of physical space. In extreme cases GF may barely have enough room to turn around in a tank. This is the aquatic equivalent of Chinese Foot Binding. If the fish cannot physically grow any bigger then it will not, but skeletal and internal deformities will often occur as a result.

Just two examples. And every single piece of information says that internal organs will continue to grow, but as the skeleton slows to a stop (or close enough to a stop), it'll lead to premature death due to internal problems.

Your attitude will get you into problems on this site if you're not careful...I'm not typing any of this for the good of my health you know... I'm just trying to help you and your fish avoid problems in the future.

 

[Curiosity101]

Also nmonks has said stunting does occur...it's just not down to the size of the aquarium (which I never said it was). It's all due to hormones. There have been plenty of studies 'in the field' of fish in high density groups that have a shorter lifespan on average and stunted growth.

If you were willing to do huge water changes multiple times a day then yes...the fish would have no health problems. But it's still infair to keep 30cm+ sized fish in a 30gal...
I don't agree with the attitude of 'We'll upgrade in the future when we need to'..it seems selfish to me unless it really is a matter of weeks and you KNOW the correct tank is coming.

 

[the420buzz]

May I ask where those articles are from? And also, I've linked to a post from someone who (I'd consider) very intelligent in this subject (subject being fish). And may I also note your articles are discussing Goldfish. The post that I linked to specifically says that, and I quote;

While the size of the aquarium may be one factor, diet, genetics, exercise, and so on could also be issues as well. In lab experiments, only certain types of fish "stunt" when overcrowded in tanks, goldfish being one example. Other fish, such as cichlids, will reach full size regardless.

(edit: removed a line which was irrelevant.)

I'm not trying to have an attitude, I'm just letting you know my opinion much like you're letting me know yours. You don't need to tell me to do multiple water changes a day, as I already know that and just linked you to it. I don't know about everyone else on this forum, but I'm sure some of us don't have money laying around to freely buy a large tank. Some of us struggle to have money around for our familys or ourselves. If you consider that selfish, then I guess I'm selfish. Don't you think if I had the money to do that, I would have instead of having what I have? Once again, you assuming what you do is very quite rude, which may or may not explain where I have an 'attitude' from.

 

[Curiosity101]

If you don't have money to buy a larger tank then buy smaller fish.
It's quite simple. And so yes...keeping fish you know you may not be able to house correctly is selfish.

And the link you used was about dwarf puffers...
Plus are you saying that you Green Terrors will grow to full size like that justifies having them in a 30gal...

As I said, you WILL have problems. Accept it or don't accept it. If you only want to believe the information that you want to believe then fine.
We'll see in a few months time when fish start 'dissappearing'.

 

[the420buzz]

If you don't have money to buy a larger tank then buy smaller fish.
It's quite simple. And so yes...keeping fish you know you may not be able to house correctly is selfish.

And the link you used was about dwarf puffers...
Plus are you saying that you Green Terrors will grow to full size like that justifies having them in a 30gal...

As I said, you WILL have problems. Accept it or don't accept it. If you only want to believe the information that you want to believe then fine.
We'll see in a few months time when fish start 'dissappearing'.

I have smaller fish. I didn't buy the green terrors. I was given them as fry and I've raised them since that. Why don't you quit assuming things?

Yes, the link I gave was a question about dwarf puffers. However, if you actually read the response, it's not mainly about anything but stunting in general. So don't try and act like I'm throwing around useless links, as it relates fully to what I am saying.

I'm not at all trying to justify having them in a 30gal. Did you really miss the 'for now'? I asked you where you got your information, and you have yet to let me know. I'm not going to believe a quote that you could have copy and pasted from any random site, credible or not. As it is right now, you're trying to convince me by word of mouth. If your articles are from a reputable source, than so be it and I'll read more into it, but regardless, nobody has 100% proof of stunting, or what it does. You're doing the very same thing you're accusing me of, and only believing the information that you want to believe.

But like you said, we'll see. I don't feel like sitting here debating with you over this anymore. Thanks for your two cents.

 

[RedShark]

Hero status, way to go 420buzz on rescuing those fish from the conditions they were in!

"nobody has 100% proof of stunting, or what it does" - I find this to be true as well. If the proof is out there, i have yet to find it.


BUT, my method of deciding which fish to buy/house from my lfs is always the same:

1. I take into account the fact that the fish were caught in the wild and are used to having way more swimming area than any aquarium in someones home can ever offer.
2. Tank mates! I think of which fish would enjoy eachothers company the most, being forced to live inside of a glass poop-factory.
3. Ask myself, which fish would enjoy my 30gallon fully planted tank, the most?

Obviously, there is tons more to consider before buying an aquarium and fish - I just thought I'd share my personal approach to, making an attempt to replicating nature in a way that offers the best living conditions possible, for my freshwater fish.


Thank you,

Red

 

[the420buzz]

Time for an update.

I finally got some sand for the 30gal and got that set up in there. Took a good 3 days to clear up enough to see through it easily, and while there's still a bit of residue that hasn't settled yet, it's looking awesome. I got a new light bulb, as the one my friend gave me was blown, and I could try my luck with live plants if I wanted as the bulb I got can grow them (according to the guy at my LFS). Anyways, after letting the sand settle, I moved the fish back in and let them explore their new flooring. I also decided to go for a nice school of tiger barbs as well, as not only do they need a nice group to be happy, they school together great. While I picked up a bulb for my light, I grabbed up the remaining 10 tiger barbs that were on sale, a sale ending today. Sadly, I lost a couple in the day or two after (shouldn't of introduced 10 at once, my guess). One died on the first night, I happened to walk up to the tank and the little guy was doing loops in the water, slowly and slowly raising towards the surface. Once he hit the surface, he thrashed a bit at the top of the water before becoming still and floating with the current, gasping for breath. A minute later, he stopped breathing. I woke up the next morning to no better news, finding one more tiger barb eaten at the bottom of the tank. Whether he got attacked and then eaten, or died and then picked at, I'm not sure. Later that day I found one final tiger barb, floating at the top of the tank dead. Thankfully, I haven't lost any since then. It seemed a little out of the blue though, as they were all swimming together fine and no signs of anything wrong beforehand. Anyways, here's a couple pictures I just took. After a couple changes of scenery, and after getting a few more pieces of slate from my friend, this is how its looking. Planning to get a couple more plants, and they'll reach to the surface as the ones in there now I trimmed. Some kind of an ornament or driftwood too, maybe. Background still coming soon, as well (It keeps slipping my mind)


30gal
Inhabitants
x3 Green Terrors (still small, see pics)
x11 Tiger Barbs (from 14 to 11)
x1 Gold Barb (sadly lost one of these as well a bit back)
x1 Goldfish
x1 Pleco

TANK

In Light, Tank Light Off

In Dark, Tank Light On

INHABITANTS

Green Terrors

- I'm pretty sure this is the medium of the three, may be the biggest though

- I think this is the biggest, curse my bad memory

- This is the biggest

- Biggest and medium, I'm just realizing how close they're getting in size

- The smallest, cute little guy, scared of the world.


Tiger Barbs (and Gold Barb)

- There's no way I could get individual pics, so here's a group shot and picture eleven of them

- Another group shot, Gold Barb on bottom right


Pleco

- Annnnnnnd one of the pleco Although he's stuck to the wall here, he's been swimming a lot more recently




So there you have it, my 30gal as it is now. I meant to get a shot of the zipper loach in the 15gal too, but forgot. I may post a video in the video section, too, so if I do, I'll edit the link in here. If anyone would like to comment, that'd be great. I'd love to hear some thoughts on my tank, or towards improving it.

 

[paul_219]

Very nice tank looking great.