My Angelfish Has Blood In Her Mouth

[tetratank]

Hi,

I need some help..

My Angelfish (female) looks bright and okay, although not herself behaviourally. She is trying to eat, but is very slow at doing so and although shows SOME interest to eat, by taking the flake, she seems to have trouble eating it.

Her mouth looks like it has blood in it. It's not on the front of her lips, but just inside. I have googled this and I can't make heads or tails of all the possibilites. I was hoping someone here may have come across this and know what it is and how to treat it.

Also I just noticed that looking from underneather her, one side of her gills seems to be working correctly going in and out, but the other side stays flat and does not seem to be moving at all.

I have a really bad feeling I am going to loose her. Any info is appreciated

 

[karin]

Please supply the needed information.
How long the tank has been set up.
Size of tank: gallons and dimensions.
Other tank mates.
Any recent changes
Water stats: precise measures of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH
Maintenance Routine
Does the fish have any other symptoms: esp. stringy whitish poop?

 

[tetratank]

Please supply the needed information.
How long the tank has been set up.
Size of tank: gallons and dimensions.
Other tank mates.
Any recent changes
Water stats: precise measures of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH
Maintenance Routine
Does the fish have any other symptoms: esp. stringy whitish poop?

Hi Karin,

Tank has been running for over 3 years.
80L tank
4 sterbai corydoras, 1 bristlenose, 6 x neons 1 Angelfish

Yes, big changes. I had an adult male that she was with but they didn't get along. He was locking mouths with her everytime I turned the light on the tank so for the last year I haven't been able to turn the light on for more than a few minutes. Last Thrusday she had a white growth on her side about 2mm and a very, very sore mouth and a damaged fin. I took him back to the petstore I purchased him from because I couldn't stand how rough he was being with her and I have had her since she was a juvenile. I only got him because she laid her eggs every 2 weeks and I thought she wanted a boy to pair with. They often got their eggs to fry and then would eat them. But the last few times he has just got so 'Alpha male' with her and the rest of the tank mates that I thought he should go back.
Since then the white growth has gone, and her mouth looks okay now, but she has blood inside her mouth and the gill problem I only noticed tonight.

I was going to go the to LFS today, but have got sidetracked with family issues. I will provide them as soon as I can tomorrow. I just tested the PH and it is 7.4

She had a palish poo but more pinkish/tan colour. (much like the flake I give her)

Maintenance, I have recently changed my 50% water change from fortnightly to 25% weekly. But previously it was the prior. Gravel clean once a month. I only use stress coat for every water change and flourish excel for the swords. I clean the filter media in the bucket of siphoned tank water at cleaning time. I have just changed the carbon in there last Thursday.

I'm sorry I don't have ammonia, nitites and nitrates right now, but will do asap.

Do you have any idea or heard of these problems with Angels before?

 

[Athena]

Sounds to me like the lip-locking/fighting that was going on with the male could have caused this mouth problem you can see on the female. I have seen a similar thing with a couple of my male convicts who tend to have the same behavioural pattern as the angels - being cichlids I guess they would be similar. Sometimes the males can get overly eager to spawn with the female when she is not in the mood, resulting in this aggressive behaviour - sometimes it can be so bad that the female can become bullied to death. I have had to rescue a couple of female cons and separate them from the males for a week or two.

The blood streaks you can see around the mouth area usually heal up of their own accord, providing your water is in a good, clean condition, which it sounds as though it is from your maintenance regime. If you are worried that the stress may have caused a bacterial infection, you could treat with an anti-bac medication (I use Myxazin).

Regards, Athena

 

[tetratank]

Sounds to me like the lip-locking/fighting that was going on with the male could have caused this mouth problem you can see on the female. I have seen a similar thing with a couple of my male convicts who tend to have the same behavioural pattern as the angels - being cichlids I guess they would be similar. Sometimes the males can get overly eager to spawn with the female when she is not in the mood, resulting in this aggressive behaviour - sometimes it can be so bad that the female can become bullied to death. I have had to rescue a couple of female cons and separate them from the males for a week or two.

The blood streaks you can see around the mouth area usually heal up of their own accord, providing your water is in a good, clean condition, which it sounds as though it is from your maintenance regime. If you are worried that the stress may have caused a bacterial infection, you could treat with an anti-bac medication (I use Myxazin).

Regards, Athena

Hi Athena,
I know you are right about the behaviour to spawn. She has always been keen, but this last time she laid and they both were fanning, guarding as they do every fortnight, but I caught him bossing her about with them. He was bullying her and taking over. He wanted to look after them alone. It wasn't like this in the beginning, it was very mutual and quite lovely to watch. But more recently the lip locking was very savage to the point I thought one might get jaw locked. Neither would give in. I noticed she abandoned or more likely was forced to the corner of the tank. He continued looking after them but she was damaged on her side, mouth and one of her fins which is still healing.

I'm hoping the red streaks go away that are prominent in her mouth. Her appetite is very low and usually she is a piglet. I'm pretty certain my water is in good order but I will definetely get those results for you guys as even the most crystal clear water as I have at the moment can be deceiving.

Do you know why one of her gills is not moving? The one on the left looks to be working okay, actually it looks to be overworked to be honest, and the opposing one has just the very slightest movement. It's very odd. How long do they live as I bought her as a juvi 3.5 yrs ago so she would have to be at least 4 as she was the size of a 50cent piece.(Aussie 50cents )

I will have a look what we have here in OZ for bacterial infections, but I really don't want to disturb the good bacteria and send the tank into a spin. I have only ever used tri sulpha tabs for an episode of itch after some newbie neons ages ago.

Do you think it is silly to put an air tube in there to increase oxygen levels? I put the one I have here in there a couple of days ago, as I normally only use overflow from the filter for aeration.

I really want to know what is wrong with her, I feel awful that I can't do anything to make her feel better.

 

[karin]

I agree with Athena. First make certain that water is pristine. Get a good liquid based test kit and make certain ammonia and nitrites are zero and nitrates below 40. I would do 25% water changes every other day with a good dechlor like Seachem's Prime. Red streaking is usually associated with septecemia, a bacterial infection that could have come from the lip locking and then poor water quality. Sometimes water changes and water management are all you need. The gill thing is more difficult. It could be an injury or it could be something like flukes. Flukes or some other parasite might explain not eating. In that case. I would do the water changes and watch. If the two issues do not resolve the challenge is that one calls for anti-bacterials and the other for anti-parasite medications. See if you can get her to eat an anti-bacterial medicated food usually available at pet shops. I would watch and see what happens and then repost here.


see here for info on septecemia and flukes

http/badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_palace/tropicalfish_disease_identification.html

Good luck.

 

[tetratank]

I agree with Athena. First make certain that water is pristine. Get a good liquid based test kit and make certain ammonia and nitrites are zero and nitrates below 40. I would do 25% water changes every other day with a good dechlor like Seachem's Prime. Red streaking is usually associated with septecemia, a bacterial infection that could have come from the lip locking and then poor water quality. Sometimes water changes and water management are all you need. The gill thing is more difficult. It could be an injury or it could be something like flukes. Flukes or some other parasite might explain not eating. In that case. I would do the water changes and watch. If the two issues do not resolve the challenge is that one calls for anti-bacterials and the other for anti-parasite medications. See if you can get her to eat an anti-bacterial medicated food usually available at pet shops. I would watch and see what happens and then repost here.


see here for info on septecemia and flukes

http/badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_palace/tropicalfish_disease_identification.html

Good luck.

Okay, just got back form the LFS. MY tank water readings as follows:

Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 0
Ph 7.0-7.2

They said it must be an ulcer from the rough lip locking. And that maybe her appetite is down due to how sore it is. Also with the gill prob, she said possibly she is stressed due to the sudden change with him being gone.. I personally don't like using anything in my tank bar neutraliser so she suggested PRIMAFIX. I have just done a 25% water change now, removed my carbon and dosed. Nearly freaked when I saw so many bubbles in the tank. Seems to be filtering through quickly.

Karin, I just looked at the link and I wonder about the flukes.... She did have that 2mm white growth on the side of her gill that has gone or subsided. I hope this med fixes her and if fluke related gets rid of it.

So fingers crossed and toes! I hope I haven't done a bad thing here, my gut feeling is against it, I really, really don't like putting anything in my water.

 

[karin]

Well keep a good watch. Just for info. I don't see how a 3 year old tank has 0 nitrates. I already question that reading and I have never heard of a fish stress response being one gill not being used. I already doubt this lfs person. Pimafix is okay, but your water changes will be more important. Carbon is useless in a tank after 4-5 days. Most of us do not use it unless we specifically need to remove meds. It isn't the best biofilter medium. I would replace it with more biofilter medium like the ceramic noodles or something similar.

I understand not wanting to use medications, but sometimes, just like with our own bodies, that is what is needed.

Good luck.

 

[colleen0309]

As for the age of your female angel, 3.5 years isn't old. My silver angels are 12 years old. I'm not sure what the life span is, but my silvers are old. One is almost blind, but the other is still going strong. I also have a pair, 1 koi and 1 black, that have been lip locking alot lately. They are just a year old. I'm going to be moving that pair around with different mates to see if I can find a compatible mate. Good Luck. I hope your angel heals soon.

 

[tetratank]

Hi Karin,

I have 2 LFS stores that I go to, ths is the one I use for readings and fish. The other I use for carbon/sponges plants. Just seems one has something and the other has something else that I prefer. After reading your post I will go to my other LFS tomorrow because once I got a water reading from them and they were numbered readings down to the point, which are no doubt more accurate. The one I went to today uses a colour chart. I was righ there watching her, and saw the levels myself, so they were accurate to her chart.

With the carbon, I have always used it. I was of the understanding it removes impurities from the water and mine is always crystal clear. I agree it's lifespan is short but how are you removing impurites from your water apart from regular water changes?

With the ceramic noodles, are those the white small things that come with the Aquaclear filters? I always have them in my filter, they aren't the most attractive item after awhile lol, but they are used for bacterial growth, aren't they?

I want to tell you that I am really worried about her now. She just had a short white poo. Instantly I thought about what you wrote last night...what does this mean? She hasn't eaten anything and looks skinny and miserable Do you think the Primafix will do anything at all? On the bottle it says to dose daily for 7 days and then do a water change of 25%. Do you think I should do a 20% w/c daily and dose after each or follow this guide and not touch the water, just treat it with the med? She's hanging in there, but she isn't her glorious self

Wow, 12 years old, that's pretty cool, they are older than my kids. You must be very attached to them. Thanks for letting me know, as that definetely excludes age as an issue. Thanks for your wishes, I am hoping she heals soon too

 

[tetratank]

Also Colleen, May I ask you if you have come across any of these ailments in your Angels? The blood in the mouth, one gill not moving in and out and most recently (poor fish, I can't stop looking at her closely) in her mouth it looks like some sort of swollen membrane?

 

[colleen0309]

I've had the bloody mouth before from lip locking. I also had it happen in my convicts. I've never had the gill problem though. I've had all their fins torn, torn lips, and generally all scuffed up, but no gill problems. Good luck!

 

[karin]

White stringy poo and not eating are classic signs of internal parasites. I would do a medication with metronidazole like General Cure from API. Then get some medicated food for internal parasites if you can. I would try to trust that the water changes will treat the red streaking for now and focus on the internal parasites. I would stop the pimafix for now. But that is me. General cure might help with gill flukes too.

And I would get your own API master test kit so you can test your own water. Most of us here just don't trust the lfs workers. While I'm sure there are great one's out there, there are also a lot of lousy ones. Take over your own water management. It is interesting and part of fish keeping.

Good luck. I can tell you really care and that is great.

karin

 

[tetratank]

White stringy poo and not eating are classic signs of internal parasites. I would do a medication with metronidazole like General Cure from API. Then get some medicated food for internal parasites if you can. I would try to trust that the water changes will treat the red streaking for now and focus on the internal parasites. I would stop the pimafix for now. But that is me. General cure might help with gill flukes too.

And I would get your own API master test kit so you can test your own water. Most of us here just don't trust the lfs workers. While I'm sure there are great one's out there, there are also a lot of lousy ones. Take over your own water management. It is interesting and part of fish keeping.

Good luck. I can tell you really care and that is great.

karin

Hi Karin, okay, will treat the med you suggest. How long do you see results with this one? I just got home so dosed the tank and got on here. Will start tomorrow. Will this med affect the good bacteria in my tank? I'm so scared of chemicals due to a really bad experience with my tank looking like it had milk in it one morning and me trying to save my fish. It was some time ago, but playing around with the good bacteria is asking for trouble in long established tanks. I Try to look after my water so I don't have to use chemicals, I suppose that's where a water testing kit comes in But....obviously stuffed up somewhere as my favourite fish is suffering. Good news is she is still with us.

 

[karin]

The general cure (metronidazole) does not affect tank bacteria. Hard to say how long it takes. Ideally your fish would be eating and you can dose the tank and then soak some food in the medication. Ideally you get the stuff in her. But if she isn't eating that is hard. It really is a wait and see.

Someone once recommended to me to crush some fresh garlic with the food as it is a good appetite stimulant. You might try that.