Marine Do I Take The Plunge?

[stevek77]

hi everyone ,

ok where to start?, im thinking of starting a saltwater tank but im clueless i have a small tank a present (tropical) so looking at rehoming to lfs, i have spoken to the staff briefly and they said my tank should be ok to start up, but when they said about protien skimmers and ro water i got a little lost ,

i only want small fish not interested in corals and award winning tanks etc my daughter just wants a nemo fish ,

ok equipment as follows:

1, aqua one ufo 550 corner tank 100litres not 76 as it suggests ,
2, aqua aquis 500 external filter 2yr fish in bacteria,
3, tetratec ex700 external filter 1yr fish in bacteria,
4, 200w heater.......

so just really want to know what people think can i get away with it?, i cant get a bigger tank as i live in 3rd floor flat with wooden floor ,

i know several years ago people who had/tried marine said it cost a fortune and the fish never seemed to survive? has modern mechanics improved things? any advice is much appriciated as im a complete novice i would also need list of things i need if you all think i can get away with it?, budget maybe not such an issue but doesnt mean i want to throw money away either , many thanx

 

[Donya]

Have a look at the pinned threads at the top of this section if you haven't already - there is a lot of start-up info there. Specifically read up on live rock and power heads. Skimmers aren't needed on all tanks. I'm think there's RO/RODI stuff somewhere in those stickies too. Regarding the state of the hobby and fish survival, you can even get a captive-bred "Nemo" these days! If you do your research and approach a marine system thoughtfully, particularly if you stay within the "safe" zone of well-understood animals (clowns being safely in this zone), you shouldn't run into a situation where the animals are just dying all over the place. If you try to push the boundaries of the hobby with species that are poorly described and whose interactions with other animals may be unknown, it's a somewhat different situation.

Are the filters coming from other marine hobbyists, or are are these your current freshwater filters? If they are freshwater, then the years of bacteria for filtering unfortunately just means you'll have more scrubbing to do to make them squeaky clean to start out on a saltwater tank.

I just took a quick look and saw that both filters are canisters, is that right? If you use canisters, you'll want to stick some prefilters on the intakes to avoid crud building up inside the chambers that can decrease the effectiveness of chemical media and/or live rock rubble - which are the main two things canisters are useful for with marine tanks. Some folks like to bash canisters as being "nitrate factories," which is a myth that doesn't hold up to logic and modern understanding of marine systems, but, as with many myths, it has a clear source: people who don't prefilter their canisters and/or maintain them regularly. Basically if you let any marine filtration device silt up with muck, you will have a mess to deal with and canisters are no exception. On my own tanks I have found canisters to be a nice alternative to a sump (but if you have a sump, you probably won't want the canisters) and I have two on a 55-gallon saltwater tank right now. As long as they are maintained properly, they are a good place to put chemical media and extra live rock rubble if the tank needs it. However, depending on the direction you take with your tank, you may not need/want them.

 

[stevek77]

Have a look at the pinned threads at the top of this section if you haven't already - there is a lot of start-up info there. Specifically read up on live rock and power heads. Skimmers aren't needed on all tanks. I'm think there's RO/RODI stuff somewhere in those stickies too. Regarding the state of the hobby and fish survival, you can even get a captive-bred "Nemo" these days! If you do your research and approach a marine system thoughtfully, particularly if you stay within the "safe" zone of well-understood animals (clowns being safely in this zone), you shouldn't run into a situation where the animals are just dying all over the place. If you try to push the boundaries of the hobby with species that are poorly described and whose interactions with other animals may be unknown, it's a somewhat different situation.

Are the filters coming from other marine hobbyists, or are are these your current freshwater filters? If they are freshwater, then the years of bacteria for filtering unfortunately just means you'll have more scrubbing to do to make them squeaky clean to start out on a saltwater tank.

I just took a quick look and saw that both filters are canisters, is that right? If you use canisters, you'll want to stick some prefilters on the intakes to avoid crud building up inside the chambers that can decrease the effectiveness of chemical media and/or live rock rubble - which are the main two things canisters are useful for with marine tanks. Some folks like to bash canisters as being "nitrate factories," which is a myth that doesn't hold up to logic and modern understanding of marine systems, but, as with many myths, it has a clear source: people who don't prefilter their canisters and/or maintain them regularly. Basically if you let any marine filtration device silt up with muck, you will have a mess to deal with and canisters are no exception. On my own tanks I have found canisters to be a nice alternative to a sump (but if you have a sump, you probably won't want the canisters) and I have two on a 55-gallon saltwater tank right now. As long as they are maintained properly, they are a good place to put chemical media and extra live rock rubble if the tank needs it. However, depending on the direction you take with your tank, you may not need/want them.

hi thankyou for replying,
i prob will stick to a cannister i didnt realize the tropical bacteria is no good with marine , do u think i need the 2 still? the tank is 100 ltr and ex700 does 700ltr ph and aquis 500 does yep 500ltr ph can i not just use the ex700? also pre filters? can u send me a link? i can replace the media inside the cannisters relatively easily but do i need any diff media for saltwater? and skimmers can you give me a link to something i've looked online but im clueless as to what im looking for is it about size some suitable for 200 litres are only £40 and others are £200+ and i cant really hang anything on th side because its a corner tank i can hang it on the back if its under 6" wide sorry about all the questions i will read up on it but sometimes its easier to get the answers from someone then to read up and not understand what im reading.

 

[Donya]

do u think i need the 2 still?

Depends on how big they are and how much chemical media you want/need to run. Can you stick a sufficiently large bag of activated carbon and possibly a bag of phosphate remover (or phosphate pads) in just one canister? If so, you're probably ok with just the one. You'll almost certainly need something else for flow anyway (e.g. powerhead).

also pre filters?

Anything that performs mechanical filtration before water enters a device. I use some generic cut-to-fit filter pad material and hot glue to create my own covers for canister intakes - just a thin sleeve anchored with a rubber band at the top. You can also get pre-made things like these: http://www.atisponge.com/filter-max-pre-filter/. I had one of those on a powerhead once (to protect some fragile animals from being sucked up), but unfortunately my sea urchins eventually devoured the sponge.

i can replace the media inside the cannisters relatively easily but do i need any diff media for saltwater?

Mainly activated carbon (but NOT "ammocarb" type stuff with white zeolite bits mixed in - those are almost always freshwater only) and phosphate removers. It's not a bad idea to put a thin, coarser sponge or coarse fiber layer before those two types of media just to keep them extra clean and extend their life as much as possible; of course the sponge/fiber will need more regular cleaning in that case than the chemical media.

and skimmers can you give me a link to something

I would, but...I don't skim. Well, ok that's a lie, I skim on exactly one of my many different tanks, but it's an air-driven skimmer for an incredibly weird setup and is not what you'd want. I have never gotten into the bigger, more efficient skimmers as I've never had a strong need to polish the water just that little bit more. If you keep up with your water changes and don't heavily stock your tank, I would doubt you'd need one on your tank. Skimmers are more of a consideration if you want a lot of finicky/fragile corals or want lots and lots of animals crammed in. Anyway, I'm sure someone else will come along though on that topic and have models to recommend for your size tank if it looks like you'll need one.

 

[stevek77]

do u think i need the 2 still?

Depends on how big they are and how much chemical media you want/need to run. Can you stick a sufficiently large bag of activated carbon and possibly a bag of phosphate remover (or phosphate pads) in just one canister? If so, you're probably ok with just the one. You'll almost certainly need something else for flow anyway (e.g. powerhead).

also pre filters?

Anything that performs mechanical filtration before water enters a device. I use some generic cut-to-fit filter pad material and hot glue to create my own covers for canister intakes - just a thin sleeve anchored with a rubber band at the top. You can also get pre-made things like these: http://www.atisponge.com/filter-max-pre-filter/. I had one of those on a powerhead once (to protect some fragile animals from being sucked up), but unfortunately my sea urchins eventually devoured the sponge.

i can replace the media inside the cannisters relatively easily but do i need any diff media for saltwater?

Mainly activated carbon (but NOT "ammocarb" type stuff with white zeolite bits mixed in - those are almost always freshwater only) and phosphate removers. It's not a bad idea to put a thin, coarser sponge or coarse fiber layer before those two types of media just to keep them extra clean and extend their life as much as possible; of course the sponge/fiber will need more regular cleaning in that case than the chemical media.

and skimmers can you give me a link to something

I would, but...I don't skim. Well, ok that's a lie, I skim on exactly one of my many different tanks, but it's an air-driven skimmer for an incredibly weird setup and is not what you'd want. I have never gotten into the bigger, more efficient skimmers as I've never had a strong need to polish the water just that little bit more. If you keep up with your water changes and don't heavily stock your tank, I would doubt you'd need one on your tank. Skimmers are more of a consideration if you want a lot of finicky/fragile corals or want lots and lots of animals crammed in. Anyway, I'm sure someone else will come along though on that topic and have models to recommend for your size tank if it looks like you'll need one.

thanks for all your help heres the filter My link what do u suggest i should remove from it when i buy new?, its got room for some scope. and thats brilliant about the skimmer , i was panicking as where i would put it, realistictly its a nano tank at 100ltrs so stocking wise maybe a couple of nemo clowns and some cuc poss one other?, and already been looking at powerheads but again what size to put in? is there a rule of thumb? ie size of tank = + amount of litres ph needed?

 

[Donya]

Whoa that's a big one! Yes on a 100L I think you'll be absolutely fine with just the one. The second would only be useful if you wanted extra live rock (as rubble) but couldn't fit it in the tank for some reason. Media-wise, I have never found ceramic rings to be all that great. If kept clean they "work" but don't seem to work as well as other materials. I've found rubble more effective. Bioballs I've never used directly because they seemed unnecessarily complicated to clean compared to just a big sponge. I would probably just go with a gradiated set of filter pads (coarse sponge, fine sponge, micro) and then phosphate and carbon media in the top two bins. If you can put the mechanical filtration into a single stage near the bottom (the reverse of what the pic shows - you want to scrub the water before it contacts the chemical media and rubble/other hard media), you could fill any spare ones with rubble bits, which would serve you better than the bioballs or rings if you get nice porous pieces.

realistictly its a nano tank at 100ltrs so stocking wise maybe a couple of nemo clowns and some cuc poss one other?

Sounds good! You'd do fine with a couple of clowns and a goby, blenny or some other small/peaceful fish like a gramma. I'm assuming the tank is covered? If it is you should be set on the third fish, otherwise I would warn you away from most gobies and blennies since they like to go carpet surfing more than clowns.

is there a rule of thumb? ie size of tank = + amount of litres ph needed?

The typical guideline is 20x turnover. So for 100L, 200LPH turnover summed over all equipment. However, it's far from a hard and fast rule. You get extremes from 5x to 40x. Hard to go wrong with 20x turnover though in a standard tank. Ideally you also want a few sources of flow adding up to that 20x so that it's not just a massive blast of linear flow.

EDIT: about the ceramic rings, I forgot to say I think I found them not too effective because they seemed awfully dense compared to the rubble I've used. It could be I just had a bad brand or something.

 

[stevek77]

ok spoke to a guy at the lfs and he says;

external= dont really need it ,

i do need;

1, wave maker NOT powerhead more of a diffuser needed £30ish
2, protein skimmer that does away with external? £40-£140 depending on what corals i want to grow?
3, live marine rock 10kg minimum £100 ouch ,
4, diff lighting again depending on corals
5, lots of test kits £60, seems alot?
6, RO water or premix £6 a can need 4 for my tank £24

so he said budget £250-£350 including other bits does this seem all ok or is he just trying to make a sale? i was a bit weary when he said fish could go in within a week as live rock already preforming filtration?

 

[Donya]

external= dont really need it

It can be done without, sure, but like I said it's a nice place to stick chemical media. Up to you whether you want to use it. You can do it either way.

wave maker NOT powerhead more of a diffuser needed £30ish

You don't need a wave maker unless you want one. Those are usually quite expensive so the price is confusing to me. Are you meaning a powerhead that auto-rotates rather than 2+ pumps controlled by something outside the tank? The rotating pumps/powerheads are cool but sometimes difficult to keep moving (prone to sticking in one position unless cleaned often). You'd still probably want 2 to avoid dead zones with little flow.

EDIT: forgot to add, if you use the external, it can obviously help with adding an extra point of flow although its GPH/LPH will be low compared to other types of pumps. On my two-canister tank I just have one powerhead but three flow sources.

live marine rock 10kg minimum £100 ouch

If there is sticker shock, you can go with some live rock and some dry, base rock if you are ok waiting longer during setup. The live rock will seed the other rock over time.

lots of test kits £60, seems alot?

What all is in the set? You need pH (high range), ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, KH as the basics and then things like calcium and phosphate as diagnostic tools that are more important when corals are involved.

RO water or premix £6 a can need 4 for my tank £24

Are you going to use the LFS as your primary source of RO for water changes and top-offs? The alternative is a home RODI unit, but that is also more up-front cost. I just wanted to throw it out there though in case the store has just assumed that you will be getting all your water from them.

protein skimmer that does away with external? £40-£140 depending on what corals i want to grow?

Now this sounds to me like it could be trying to make a sale, especially considering that you can always skip the skimmer now and get it later based on stocking choices. You don't need a skimmer for all corals either. If you are interested in soft corals or most LPS, you will have no need to skim just for their sake. Water changes get the job done in smaller tanks like yours. Big tanks are another story, since doing sizable water changes may be impractical/impossible.

Skimmers are also not always desirable things to have. You can actually make a system too nutrient-poor and cause corals and filter feeders to fail. For example, if you put a skimmer on your tank, you would not want to get any kind of filter-feeding animal like a feather duster worm or something.

Basically if the LFS guy hasn't picked your brain to see where you're actually headed with the tank then he won't be able to advise you well if his aim is really to do that. If he seems like an ok fellow who loves marine animals, find out what his personal experience with marine systems is beyond the store. It may be that he really is trying to help, but is a finicky SPS coral addict with systems very different from what you want. Enthusiastic LFS people have a tendency to always push people towards the same types of setups they have themselves (after all, it's what they know the most about). On the other hand, there are also plenty of people who just want to make a big sale.

i was a bit weary when he said fish could go in within a week as live rock already preforming filtration?

...Hmmm. He is right that the live rock will be already filtering, but he omitted the fact that most rock experiences a cycle anyway because of transport dieoff. You'll be looking at 3 basic steps:
1. Put LR in and test ammonia/nitrite/nitrate for a few days. Usually you see spikes.
2. After the spikes are gone, CUC goes in sparingly since you will probably see some algal/diatom blooms and stuff.
3. Once the tank has shown its stable, you can start looking at a first fish (or clown pair if you do both at once) and then building up more CUC on an as-needed basis as the tank matures.

It is usually more than a week to get from 1 to 3 safely, although it's not impossible to have literally no detectable cycle at all and for the tank to be ready immediately - but that's rare and requires some really top notch rock. If you use any base rock to cut initial costs, you will definitely need to wait a while and possibly feed the tank while fish-less to keep things ticking over while the base rock colonizes.

Please do read elsewhere than just my answers on this sort of stuff too. Doing reading and more reading is a big part of doing this hobby in a successful way.

 

[shelaghfishface]

do it!
its so much more work than tropical but worth it..dont worry about the floor.. you and a couple of mates stand in the said area for a week i think youll find it will hold
do lots of research.. especially for problems that could arise ( acclimatising, nitrates etc) i lost £200 of hammer coral literallty overnight..as i wasnt in the position to deal with problems that i should have been able to predict have to say tho the guys on a certain website were fab all the way.

good luck!
shelagh x

 

[stevek77]

thankyou for all your replys u have been brilliant i think im going to go with the external filter, prob a cheapo skimmer as i prob wont need it and im going to take my time and get everything right wish me luck

 

[Donya]

Hey what's that frowny smiley doing there - I'm sure you'll do fine.

Just realized though that I totally left something off the test kit bit of my last post: refractometer! Or really good hydrometer that you get calibrated, but refractometers with auto temperature correction are so much easier to deal with that anyone who has used both will recommend the refractometer over the hydrometer. You may have already gotten one or planned it in to the test kit batch, but in case you didn't I thought I'd toss it out there. Even if you buy all your water from the LFS you will want to be able to test the specific gravity of both it and the tank periodically as well as bag water for any new additions to know how long to drip-acclimate.

 

[stevek77]

Hey what's that frowny smiley doing there - I'm sure you'll do fine.

Just realized though that I totally left something off the test kit bit of my last post: refractometer! Or really good hydrometer that you get calibrated, but refractometers with auto temperature correction are so much easier to deal with that anyone who has used both will recommend the refractometer over the hydrometer. You may have already gotten one or planned it in to the test kit batch, but in case you didn't I thought I'd toss it out there. Even if you buy all your water from the LFS you will want to be able to test the specific gravity of both it and the tank periodically as well as bag water for any new additions to know how long to drip-acclimate.

Test the bag water!!
oh dear i've i lot to learn in tropical i never used to do that just float the bag for 20 mins open it drible some tank water in rest it fo 10 mins dribble more in about 50% of bag water then 10mins later release, so if the bag salinity is higher/lower than tank whats the rule of thumb on the drip acclimatise?, ,

sorry im such a noob i have been reading lots honest just loads to take on board and im a guy that wants to know and learn everything overnight

 

[Donya]

Inverts are the main ones for drip-acclimation due to sensitivity to sg swings in many types, so testing the bag water first lets you avoid a common mistake: rushing the acclimation with something like a shrimp only to have it die shortly after. For inverts a 1-2hr drip acclimation is good if the params aren't too far out (most of the time they won't be, but obviously it's better to make sure). If the LFS is at 1.022sg and you're at 1.025, it should be fine for most Crustaceans and Gastropods that way. Fish can go somewhat faster under the same conditions and you can often do more like what you described, as they are much more tolerant of param changes. Still though, I have seen some scarey low sg bag water over the years (like 1.016) that warranted going a lot slower. While a good shop will try to keep their reef systems near 1.025, top-off systems can go bonkers sometimes and some places also keep fish-only holding tanks with a lower sg than their reef/invert tanks to help fend off diseases.

sorry im such a noob i have been reading lots honest just loads to take on board and im a guy that wants to know and learn everything overnight

No need to apologize! We've all been there.

 

[ainsy]

ok spoke to a guy at the lfs and he says;

external= dont really need it ,

i do need;

1, wave maker NOT powerhead more of a diffuser needed £30ish
2, protein skimmer that does away with external? £40-£140 depending on what corals i want to grow?
3, live marine rock 10kg minimum £100 ouch ,
4, diff lighting again depending on corals
5, lots of test kits £60, seems alot?
6, RO water or premix £6 a can need 4 for my tank £24

so he said budget £250-£350 including other bits does this seem all ok or is he just trying to make a sale? i was a bit weary when he said fish could go in within a week as live rock already preforming filtration?

Thought that I may offer a point of view if you are interested. Firstly yes don't get down - keeping marine is very rewarding and you will soon be hooked.


I agree with the LFS you don't need an external because unless you get a high powered one you won't get the turnover that you need. I take Donya's point about the nitrates being a maintenance problem but IMO I have helped more beginners improve their water quality by simply removing the external than anything else.

I also see what your LFS is getting at about the 'wavemaker'. They are trying to advise you that the best sort of filter is live rock, but it needs a high flow over it. By wavemaker they mean one of the pumps that has the propeller instead of an impeller (like a powerhead). There are many types available from all price ranges (I even had some success with the cheap Ebay imports)

The live rock is your filter - so don't skimp on it. That said the method that Donya mentions is the one that I have always followed. Base rock or reefbones (ie. 'dead' live rock) is much cheaper. Buy loads of that and just a small amount of 'live' live rock and it will seed the dead stuff. This will take longer but will be easier on the wallet! Alternatively keep your eyes peeled for someone shutting down their tank and buy it from them - usually much cheaper than the LFS.

Lighting is correct - depends what corals you want to keep - but can always be upgraded later.

Test kits are vital I'm afraid - Donya has listed what you would need as a starting point. I have always used Salifert - they cost more but IMHO they are very good (apart from KH - use Fauna Marin & Phosphates - used D-D)

RO water - eventually you may want to invest in a unit of your own as it is more economical (unless you are on a water meter!).

The thing that I would disagree with Donya over is the need for a protein skimmer. Yes it is possible to keep tanks looking beautiful using a little know how without a skimmer (look at LLJ's tanks if you haven't already) but as a beginner the very best way to help export nutrients is a skimmer. for some proof try googling 'protein skimmer waste' or 'skimmer crud' and you will see how much grim stuff is in what you thought was perfectly clear water!

Hope this helps!

Always happy to answer any questions

 

[stevek77]

ok spoke to a guy at the lfs and he says;

external= dont really need it ,

i do need;

1, wave maker NOT powerhead more of a diffuser needed £30ish
2, protein skimmer that does away with external? £40-£140 depending on what corals i want to grow?
3, live marine rock 10kg minimum £100 ouch ,
4, diff lighting again depending on corals
5, lots of test kits £60, seems alot?
6, RO water or premix £6 a can need 4 for my tank £24

so he said budget £250-£350 including other bits does this seem all ok or is he just trying to make a sale? i was a bit weary when he said fish could go in within a week as live rock already preforming filtration?

Thought that I may offer a point of view if you are interested. Firstly yes don't get down - keeping marine is very rewarding and you will soon be hooked.


I agree with the LFS you don't need an external because unless you get a high powered one you won't get the turnover that you need. I take Donya's point about the nitrates being a maintenance problem but IMO I have helped more beginners improve their water quality by simply removing the external than anything else.

I also see what your LFS is getting at about the 'wavemaker'. They are trying to advise you that the best sort of filter is live rock, but it needs a high flow over it. By wavemaker they mean one of the pumps that has the propeller instead of an impeller (like a powerhead). There are many types available from all price ranges (I even had some success with the cheap Ebay imports)

The live rock is your filter - so don't skimp on it. That said the method that Donya mentions is the one that I have always followed. Base rock or reefbones (ie. 'dead' live rock) is much cheaper. Buy loads of that and just a small amount of 'live' live rock and it will seed the dead stuff. This will take longer but will be easier on the wallet! Alternatively keep your eyes peeled for someone shutting down their tank and buy it from them - usually much cheaper than the LFS.

Lighting is correct - depends what corals you want to keep - but can always be upgraded later.

Test kits are vital I'm afraid - Donya has listed what you would need as a starting point. I have always used Salifert - they cost more but IMHO they are very good (apart from KH - use Fauna Marin & Phosphates - used D-D)

RO water - eventually you may want to invest in a unit of your own as it is more economical (unless you are on a water meter!).

The thing that I would disagree with Donya over is the need for a protein skimmer. Yes it is possible to keep tanks looking beautiful using a little know how without a skimmer (look at LLJ's tanks if you haven't already) but as a beginner the very best way to help export nutrients is a skimmer. for some proof try googling 'protein skimmer waste' or 'skimmer crud' and you will see how much grim stuff is in what you thought was perfectly clear water!

Hope this helps!

Always happy to answer any questions

thankyou for your input can u recommend some makes models for me pls because i really dont know what im buying so i need bearing in mind its 100ltr tank; My link

1, protein skimmer
2, powerhead confused here lfs said powerhead to strong for my size tank it would need to be a diffuser or something?,
3,and anything else you think i may need

many thanks for all your help