Malawi are turning my head...

[Wills]

@Wills For what it's worth, I have a 75gal that I converted over to Chindongo (syn. Pseudotropheus) saulosi about 6 months ago. I love it! It quickly became on of my favorite tanks. The constant activity. The behavioral differences between the females/juveniles and the males is interesting. And then of course, there is the color! It is cliché in the FW portion of the hobby to compare fish color to those found on the saltier side. But particularly the females of this species are nearly yellow tang colored; same color saturation, but a bit more orange. I can sometimes grow tired of setups, and I have a bad habit of changing mine out too often. But with this species in this size tank, I hope to never be without it again. I think I have, at long last, finally found something to settle on. Something that really suits me.

Ah this sounds amazing!! Feels like you've cracked that satisfied feeling we are all seeking with our tanks.

Do you have any threads with your journey in? Did you consider doing more than one species in there, Saulosi are a truely stunning species but I'm not sure a single species tank would scratch the itch I have... Mbuna could definitely do it but I need to learn more about species, numbers, colourful females (in particular).

Wills

 

[OnlyGenusCaps]

Feels like you've cracked that satisfied feeling we are all seeking with our tanks.

I might have a bit. Well, for me and my tastes anyhow.

Do you have any threads with your journey in?

I've not posted about it on this forum, no. Sorry.

Did you consider doing more than one species in there, Saulosi are a truely stunning species but I'm not sure a single species tank would scratch the itch I have...

Fair enough. I hadn't really considered adding multiple species because I like to breed my fish, and I don't do hybrids. They just aren't my thing. And with mbuna, you are going to get babies at some point. With one species in the tank, I know just what my fish will look like for years to come. Had I multiple species in there, it would be a gamble and a changing color palate over time, which I may or may not like. That made the decision easy for me, but I can see how others would go another way.

I suppose the one caution is that, in my experience, mbuna have a larger range in aggression levels than other Malaŵi cichlid groups. Which means I would suggest to anyone intending to mix mbuna species to try to match the aggression levels in at least a broad sense. For instance, if you put a bunch of C. saulosi in with a few M. auratus, you might reasonably expect to eventually have one male auratus, and if you are lucky, females that would include some of the the female saulosi. Although the male auratus can be pretty rough on even the females and I wonder how the female saulosi would do penned in with them. If there were enough females to males it might work out fine. That said, with a similar look to the males of saulosi, P. demasoni might make it just fine in that tank.

The variations in aggression levels in mbuna is why I think I've seen people wishing to mix species, doing more male-only Aulonocara tanks. It allows you to pick what you want based on colors alone. It simplifies the research necessary for long-term success. There are a few Aulonocara species that are a bit more cantankerous than others. But, this group has been so hybridized that most fish you encounter will be hybrids unless you are tracking species down specifically. And with the hybrids it's just down to individual personality for aggression differences.

Whatever you go with, good luck! I hope it brings you joy!

 

[Wills]

I might have a bit. Well, for me and my tastes anyhow.

I've not posted about it on this forum, no. Sorry.

Fair enough. I hadn't really considered adding multiple species because I like to breed my fish, and I don't do hybrids. They just aren't my thing. And with mbuna, you are going to get babies at some point. With one species in the tank, I know just what my fish will look like for years to come. Had I multiple species in there, it would be a gamble and a changing color palate over time, which I may or may not like. That made the decision easy for me, but I can see how others would go another way.

I suppose the one caution is that, in my experience, mbuna have a larger range in aggression levels than other Malaŵi cichlid groups. Which means I would suggest to anyone intending to mix mbuna species to try to match the aggression levels in at least a broad sense. For instance, if you put a bunch of C. saulosi in with a few M. auratus, you might reasonably expect to eventually have one male auratus, and if you are lucky, females that would include some of the the female saulosi. Although the male auratus can be pretty rough on even the females and I wonder how the female saulosi would do penned in with them. If there were enough females to males it might work out fine. That said, with a similar look to the males of saulosi, P. demasoni might make it just fine in that tank.

The variations in aggression levels in mbuna is why I think I've seen people wishing to mix species, doing more male-only Aulonocara tanks. It allows you to pick what you want based on colors alone. It simplifies the research necessary for long-term success. There are a few Aulonocara species that are a bit more cantankerous than others. But, this group has been so hybridized that most fish you encounter will be hybrids unless you are tracking species down specifically. And with the hybrids it's just down to individual personality for aggression differences.

Whatever you go with, good luck! I hope it brings you joy!

Yep this is really interesting! I think this is why a male hap/peacock tank is going to be good for me (and a lot of American keepers if we are honest) I like mixing cichlid species in a tank and with Americans its hard and as I've learned more over the years its not always a great way to keep them. My original plan with this was a Nicaraguan, Salvini and an Electric Blue Jack Dempsey but I dont think it would mix well, but it would look stunning!

But I think this blaze of colour would happen with Peacocks and potentially it would work well as like you say without females the males aggression is slightly reasonable, still going to be a juggling act but I'm prepared for that and I've got some plans in place, in the same way I would with Americans.

I am going to try and stick to 'true species' rather than going for OB's or some of the other suspected hybrids but some of that may be unavoidable with Aulonocaras as some are even natural hybrids? I'm also going to go to breeders and stores that label by name rather than 'mixed Malawi' which is why I've struggled over the years to take them seriously sometimes... I think getting some of the smaller Hap species might be a good way of doing this too just need to get my head around them. Trying to learn names but not sticking as yet...

 

[OnlyGenusCaps]

I am going to try and stick to 'true species' rather than going for OB's or some of the other suspected hybrids

Sounds like you have a very cool tank in planning! Some of the species or "locations" are plenty attractive. Honestly, I don't actually like the OBs or the hybrids because I think they look worse than the natural species/putative hybrids. How can we improve on the color found in those fish?!

some of that may be unavoidable with Aulonocaras as some are even natural hybrids?

There are likely natural hybrids, for sure. Any time there is an evolutionary radiation of species like is observed in the Malaŵi cichlids, natural hybrids are to be expected. That said, they are either on stable clines, with populations that look similar to each other at a location, or they tend to be transient individuals that have reduced fitness. So, you can rest assured that if you can get a bunch of fish from the same location, especially over time, they are either a good species, stable morph, or stable hybrid that is perhaps in the process of speciation. My point is it's not like the genetic soup people make by hybridizing these fish.

 

[Wills]

Sounds like you have a very cool tank in planning! Some of the species or "locations" are plenty attractive. Honestly, I don't actually like the OBs or the hybrids because I think they look worse than the natural species/putative hybrids. How can we improve on the color found in those fish?!



There are likely natural hybrids, for sure. Any time there is an evolutionary radiation of species like is observed in the Malaŵi cichlids, natural hybrids are to be expected. That said, they are either on stable clines, with populations that look similar to each other at a location, or they tend to be transient individuals that have reduced fitness. So, you can rest assured that if you can get a bunch of fish from the same location, especially over time, they are either a good species, stable morph, or stable hybrid that is perhaps in the process of speciation. My point is it's not like the genetic soup people make by hybridizing these fish.

So I've now managed to flip back to Mbuna... thinking I'll enjoy a tank with more of a scape as I've really enjoyed that side of the hobby in the last few years so having a rock scape to play with will entertain me....

Interestingly after saying I'm not usually a fan of OB species I did find this Metriaclima Zebra black blue Masinje on a stock list of a breeder near me and quite like it. The females are either a black/orange/gray cammo effect or they are a pale version of the male - would prefer the latter. But they are a natural species and quite an interesting species.

Also interested in the Chindongo Saulosi again and also some Maingano - these two species I think would look good as the males and females all colour up. Its so hard to work out though... I've seen some others that I really like but when I've been talking to other people they all say they are impossible to keep but I'm not too convinced... Imperial tropicals have a good feature where they list some suggested combinations but I think I might just need to go to a good LFS and work out what I like, some of the names are so abstract its impossible to decipher sometimes.

I'm so shocked sometimes at how people keep Rift Lakes too... some of it is so alien to me and I just can't work out where I fit into it. So many people this side of the hobby have very relaxed approaches to welfare - in so far as compatibility and combinations - eg just chuck in a parrot cichlid or a clown loach... Or chuck in something very random.

Still a lot to get my head around - if its Mbuna I think the Saulosi and Maingano are 99% in there just want to work out 1-2 other species that might contrast or compliment well.

I really like this tank which I think is something I'd like to recreate scapewise but terrified of the Demasoni's reputation, although it does clearly work here... maybe swap out the Demasoni for the Maingano?

Wills

 

[Wills]

Swung the other way again, thinking Peacocks... Just as an example what do people think to this kind of stocking list?

Otopharynx Tetrastigma
Placidochromis sp. Jalo Reef
Aulonocara Stuartgranti ‘Maleri’ - Sunshine
Aulonocara Usisya
Aulonocara Saffron
Aulonocara Stuartgranti - Ngara Flametail
Aulonocara Rubescens - Ruby Red
Copadichromis Ivory “Undu reef” or C.Trewavasae Mloto Likoma - Fireline Mloto
Copidichromis virginalis yellowcrest Nkanda
Aulonocara maylandi
Aulonocara sp.Eureka
Protomelas steveni “Taiwan reef”

Some back ups I like are
Copadichromis Azureus
Aulonocara koningsi mbenji
Aulonocara Lwanda “Hai reef”
Aulonocara hansbaenschi red flush
Lethrinops sp. Gold “Harbour Island”
Aulonocara Turkis

I don't know if the two Copadichromis species are a good or bad idea? The yellowcrest is black and yellow and the undu reef is blue and white? But are they too closely related?

The good thing about the main list is that apart from the Eureka I can get everything in one place, and the place that has Eurekas is drivable so I could do it all in one day - though would depend on availability in a few months when I'm ready I suppose. The backup list is a bit more varied 2 stores are quite far away for one fish so bit tougher to work out but mostly ok.

Wills

 

[GaryE]

I was confused a few posts up when you talked about American keepers. For a moment, I thought you were talking about aquarists in the States.

Scaping for mbuna is fun, but everytime you remove a female either to collect fry or to strip fry so she doesn't starved to death, you have to rescape. Every new fish added, new scape. If you like fiddling around with tank decor (I do), it's fine, but they are tough fish if you have a perfectionist streak.
I have a Cichlid rule which everyone is welcome to ignore. It's my scale of aggression for those who like mixing Cichlids from different regions. It has exceptions, but it is based on many years and many different Cichlids from a lot of habitats. One is the least aggressive.
1. South Americans
2. West African river
3. Asian
4. North or central American (but size issues)
5. Central African and northwestern African
6. Tanganyikan
7. Malawi peacocks
8. Mbuna


Sure, there is always a dovii, or a Crenicichla to upset the order, but it's a guideline, not a rule. I would strongly suggest you not combine continents. It gives you a tank with lousy fish watching , for one thing. Colours aren't everything, and it has been a long time since these fish were on the same continent. There has been a lot of evolution of behaviour, and they don't always communicate well.

 

[Wills]

I was confused a few posts up when you talked about American keepers. For a moment, I thought you were talking about aquarists in the States.

Scaping for mbuna is fun, but everytime you remove a female either to collect fry or to strip fry so she doesn't starved to death, you have to rescape. Every new fish added, new scape. If you like fiddling around with tank decor (I do), it's fine, but they are tough fish if you have a perfectionist streak.
I have a Cichlid rule which everyone is welcome to ignore. It's my scale of aggression for those who like mixing Cichlids from different regions. It has exceptions, but it is based on many years and many different Cichlids from a lot of habitats. One is the least aggressive.
1. South Americans
2. West African river
3. Asian
4. North or central American (but size issues)
5. Central African and northwestern African
6. Tanganyikan
7. Malawi peacocks
8. Mbuna


Sure, there is always a dovii, or a Crenicichla to upset the order, but it's a guideline, not a rule. I would strongly suggest you not combine continents. It gives you a tank with lousy fish watching , for one thing. Colours aren't everything, and it has been a long time since these fish were on the same continent. There has been a lot of evolution of behaviour, and they don't always communicate well.

Yes sorry not being very clear in this thread haha! I meant American Cichlid Keepers as in people who keep American Cichlids not Americans who keep Cichlids... still confusing haha.

100% wouldnt mix continents its just an odd thing I see some people with rift lake tanks do. Like you'll be watching a pretty good peacock tank and oh random Green Terror?!?

No problem rearrainging decor when I need to going to invest in good hardscape as its something I enjoy - it is something that nudges me towards Mbuna because of how sparse Peacock tanks need to be...

 

[Deleted member 149562]

Easy solution to your conumdrum......

Buy and install an aquarium for each of your chosen wishlist species. If short of space at home, just order a skip and place furnishings into the skip and dispose. Get giant scatter cushions to sit on since the sofa was deemed surplus to requirement and took room space up that can otherwise be used for aquariums.

Keep 'er indoors happy with a monthly subscription of flower bouquet deliveries.

 

[Wills]

Easy solution to your conumdrum......

Buy and install an aquarium for each of your chosen wishlist species. If short of space at home, just order a skip and place furnishings into the skip and dispose. Get giant scatter cushions to sit on since the sofa was deemed surplus to requirement and took room space up that can otherwise be used for aquariums.

Keep 'er indoors happy with a monthly subscription of flower bouquet deliveries.

The wall this tank sits on is 10 foot long and we have some drawers next to the tank but they could as you say... go... I have thought about it but I don't think I can commit to maintenance on 2 big tanks at the moment bit worried about this one when it gets set up...

 

[Deleted member 149562]

The wall this tank sits on is 10 foot long and we have some drawers next to the tank but they could as you say... go... I have thought about it but I don't think I can commit to maintenance on 2 big tanks at the moment bit worried about this one when it gets set up...

Go on....you KNOW you want to do it......once this aquarium is sorted you'll forever be sizing the wall up with that longing twinkle in the eye and the imagination doing backflips

 

[Wills]

Go on....you KNOW you want to do it......once this aquarium is sorted you'll forever be sizing the wall up with that longing twinkle in the eye and the imagination doing backflips

Oh I wish I could but I know its not something I can reliably make time for at the moment. Got to take the responsible route this time!

Then again... 6 months time when I've got into a routine with one tank, a second tank next to it would be easy enough to drain and refil right?

 

[GaryE]

It is a basic truth that two 4 foot tanks side by side are really only one tank with a double divider on them. East African fish do all the plant trimming, as they are water goats. All you have to do is change water, and once you haul out the gear, that's most of the job right there.

 

[Deleted member 149562]

Oh I wish I could but I know its not something I can reliably make time for at the moment. Got to take the responsible route this time!

Then again... 6 months time when I've got into a routine with one tank, a second tank next to it would be easy enough to drain and refil right?

Those little "can I do it?" cogwheels are running overtime within your imagination.....rehome the chest of drawers in the garage and just go for it.

You'll only sit there wishing and regretting that you didn't do it later on....when you sit staring at that chest of drawers, imagining an aquarium being there instead

As @GaryE said...two aquariums, are just one big one with a divider......easy to look after once set up.

Don't fight the urge to do it....you'll be kicking yourself if you pass this opportunity up.

 

[Wills]

Well yes... blimey you guys are a bad influence! I'll stick with one for now but who knows in a little while...

Currently trying to decide on the stocking for this one, starting to get the hang of Mbuna now, well at a theoretical level. I kind of know what I'm looking at.

One option I'm thinking of is

Chindongo Saulosi
Chindongo Socolofi or Metriaclima Callainos Chitande
Pseudotropheus Cyaneorhabdos Maingano
Yellow Labs

So lots of blue and yellows, the Maingano have horizontal black and blue bars and the male Saulosi has vertical black and blue bars. The M.Callainos Chitande are a bright light blue which I like too. This feels like a safe option as all quite predictable fish.

Second idea is
Metriaclima Fainzilberi Maison Reef
Chindongo Socolofi or Metriaclima Callainos Chitande
Metriaclima sp. Msobo "Magunga"
Labidichromis sp. Hongi Sweden Super Red

Which is probably a bit more aggressive, the Maison Reef are stunning males, females still a nice powder/ steel blue grey (some people say dull but seen a few videos where they look good) the C.Socolofi might do better switched with Metriaclima Callainos Chitande from option one but not sure if keeping more than one Metriaclima species is a good idea which brings me to Metriaclima sp. Msobo which is quite a similar fish to the Saulosi but a bit tougher. All these Metriaclimas look really different from each other so is that ok? Or should I pick different families? Also in a tougher tank the Hongi Sweden Super Reds would have to be in there.

Both set ups would be each species with 1 male and 4-5 females, the Maingano might have a few more females as I've read that can help. I'm hoping to have a group of small Tanganyikan Synodontis in there too to help with fry control as I'm not planning any specific breeding programs... yet.

Wills