Losing the wild… discussing domestication, is it better for the fish???

[Magnum Man]

Morning caffeine subject of the day….
We did some volunteer work last night, and I was tired when I got home late, and I missed my “normal” fish feeding time… yep, I have 3 tanks, that I feed in the morning, and my others ( the bulk of them ) I feed at night… this is around my schedule, and has to do with the light schedule, on the ones I feed in the mornings… but they normally get fed like clockwork at the same times each day…

I’m wondering, if that takes the wild out of them, getting on a feeding schedule??? fish live longer in captivity, this is a known fact, but likely because of more stable water conditions, lack of predators, disease treatment… do we think they actually live longer, because we domesticated them… after a couple years, my fish all know it’s feeding time… wondering if we varied those times, so it was a surprise, if it might show itself in a fish with a more wild behavior???

And if we varied their schedules as much as possible, if that might have positive effects in their lives, perhaps even in breeding??? I’m not talking about adjusting the quantity, just varying the times they find food…

 

[GaryE]

I follow a schedule in that I feed sometime in the morning, and for young fish, often again in the afternoon. But that feeding can vary by a few hours.
I also try to feed live food as much as possible, so they have to catch it.
I hate seeing fish beg at the glass. I vary where and when the food goes in to reduce that.

I have a view that a few members have gotten angry at me for. I'd argue every domesticated fish is as good as dead. Once the fish is out of its habitat, and out of the social and breeding dynamics of its species, it's a ghost. Every fish we keep, domesticate or genetically modify is the victim of a predator, just as much as if we ate them. We do them no favours by keeping them. How we keep them depends on what we want to do.

Many captive fish outlive wilds, but I see that as down to predators alone. They eat better in nature, and generally have infinitely better water conditions than in our crowded, tiny tanks. They don't encounter diseases as much - in the wild, Ich is an occasional few cysts that burst while the fish is moving millions of gallons away from the new cloud of parasites. You'd need 24/7 automatic, temperature and chemical controlled water changing to approach most rivers, unless we happen to be polluting them.

I ordered some new fish this morning while downing my 3 big cups of coffee. I can question my own ethics there, but I want to learn about them. I have questions about all of them, for better or worse. I will question schedules. Sometimes I go to the fishroom and decide to skip a feeding, or go back in a couple of hours for it. I skip one day a week with adult fish, but never the same day.

 

[gwand]

It is the wild caught fish I feel sorry for in our hobby. They know the difference between freedom and enslavement within the confines of a tank. Tank raised fish know no other world but the one we provide. I vary my feeding days and times to keep the fish guessing.

 

[GaryE]

It is the wild caught fish I feel sorry for in our hobby. They know the difference between freedom and enslavement within the confines of a tank. Tank raised fish know no other world but the one we provide. I vary my feeding days and times to keep the fish guessing.

I don't know there. I keep wild caughts or home bred fish in general, and they really quickly figure out the predator issue. They are always wary, but seem to realize that other than me and the dog, there's not much lurking in the new place. I probably fool myself, but they seem to appreciate the "freedom from" aspect.
Farmed fish remind me of suburban kids getting off a bus for a field trip in my old neighbourhood. Mmm, fresh fish. They don't lose their instincts (I think 99% of what every living creature does in determined by instincts) but they have to wake them up and get them working.

Any fish kept cramped in dirty water with a decor that doesn't suit its needs is going to be miserable. You can create a tank environment that works for them.

 

[seangee]

I don't know there. I keep wild caughts or home bred fish in general, and they really quickly figure out the predator issue. They are always wary, but seem to realize that other than me and the dog, there's not much lurking in the new place. I probably fool myself, but they seem to appreciate the "freedom from" aspect.

I'm not sure its that simple. I try to keep mine in habitats that are close to what they have in the wild, without getting hung up on accurate biotopes. But I do know that my wild caught cardinals are much more relaxed and visible when they have a good surface covering. I occasionally thin this dramatically (usually to have another crack at eradicating duckweed ). And when I have half the surface covered they always stick to the covered side. I suspect that that is just part of their genetic programming. I'm sure mine have no idea of what birds are - but they still feel safer when they are invisible from above.

 

[Magnum Man]

My South American Tetra tank doesn’t have any floating plants, but several layers of Pothos vines, between the light, and the top of the tank, and is heavily shaded, and they seem at ease… my African Tetras, have water meal on about 3/4 of the top of the tank, and they look at ease…

 

[GaryE]

Instinct isn't going to vanish in a few dozen generations. It's fundamental. And yes, I did oversimplify. That's where sitting down and talking like human beings beats the internet.

I left out assumptions. All my tanks have shading from above. I've really added to that since I got into Gabonese habitats. It seem essential to me. My light strips get free play on the water, but plant leaves are there. I use glass tops, ideally thick enough to hold pots. I just cleaned up a 20 I wasn't happy with, and had to move a big Philodendron and a fishbone cactus off it.

I may add lighting when budget allows - higher up over tanks so I don't have to depend on windows as much.

Open water may not mean birds per se, but I wouldn't be surprised if for small fish, it's similar to how I'd feel having no way forward but to cut through a dark alley at night - hyper alertness, a sense of foreboding, a level of wary stress, fight or flight activated. Those responses probably evolved very early.

Only for fish, it's reversed. The alley is the safe zone, and the wide open street is where the hazards are. It's partly why a lot of people advocate for planted tanks. Little creatures need hiding places and shadows sometimes. Take them away and they have serious stress.

Farmed fish figure out they no longer live in bare pools, and they get going for cover quickly. They adapt in a short time.

 

[Oldspartan]

As beginners we cycled, put some stuff in the tank that pleased us, then plopped some fish in. We are responsible for killing more than a few. Over time we have learned some and are learning more. As we begin moving tanks around, we will be trying to make the glass habitat closer to what the individual species naturally should have. It will be rough and inadequate, but we will try.

One thing that has become obvious to us .... If we can find home raised fish, they are better suited to the tank than those we buy at a fish store. They seem more active, have less trouble adapting, and seem happier. Maybe these are wrong observations, and wishful thinking. though.