Loose stools and treatment-resistant fin rot

I like the vet's diagnosis. Hopefully, the methylene blue will work. Ich-X has malachite green and can be used as an anti-fungal treatment. I would consider using Maracyn Oxy for the fungal treatment as an option as well before trying anything surgical. 🐠
Malachite green/formaldehyde would absolutely work for fungus, yes. And I do have Ich-X on hand. However, I'm going to try limiting my use of those moving forward because I was reminded of the fact that both substances are carcinogenic/mutagenic. I often forget, because I work with formalin not uncommonly and it is irresponsibly treated as "not that big of a deal" within my workplace because so many of us work with much nastier chemicals. But both formaldehyde and malachite green should only be handled with gloves, and ideally eye protection too. I don't really want to deal with that, honestly.

Regarding "surgery", it wouldn't really be a true surgical procedure, but it definitely would be a controlled and precise medical procedure. I do hope I don't have to do it, but I'm confident in my ability to do so. I have a recommended anesthesia dosage, and I have access to a very common and safe anesthetic (MS-222) that comes in a standard concentration (unlike eugenol, for example). I also have access to a dissecting microscope, which would make handling a precise treatment on a tiny fish a lot easier.
 
Would the actual surgery be much more involved than taking a fin clip for DNA? The fish don't seem to have nerves in the fin, though I imagine close to the caudal peduncle would hurt. The ray and soft tissue wouldn't.

Getting a textbook on fish treatment would be useful if we were all in a research context. If I want to use antibiotics, I have to buy them black market, which I will not do. We simply don't have access to viable treatments. Melafix, Pimafix - they're for us, not the fish. They make us feel useful while water changes and random luck decide if the fish survives. Here in Canada, we have herbal concoctions, no active agents listed, along with what appear to be homeopathic scams for fish. Info on all of the working chemicals would leave us like poor kids with our noses up against the glass of a toy store...
 
Would the actual surgery be much more involved than taking a fin clip for DNA? The fish don't seem to have nerves in the fin, though I imagine close to the caudal peduncle would hurt. The ray and soft tissue wouldn't.
No, probably not much more involved than that. I would be very gently wiping away the fungus using a small square of gauze soaked in betadine. Just debriding the diseased tissue away to leave a clean, healthy fin margin. It'd definitely be delicate work, with such a small fish. The vet warned me that it's surprisingly easy to pull the fin completely off, if you aren't careful. I'm used to very fine, delicate work like that under a microscope though, which is why I'd feel comfortable attempting it.

And no, the fish wouldn't feel it at all. Regardless of innervation in the fins, MS-222 is an analgesic as well as an anesthetic. That's another point in its favor over eugenol, which is likely not actually analgesic for the fish.

Info on all of the working chemicals would leave us like poor kids with our noses up against the glass of a toy store...
That might be true, but the book does include dosing/application information for a lot of non-antibiotic medications that can be used on fish as well. Iodine, hydrogen peroxide, formalin, malachite green, methylene blue, potassium permanganate (readily available, often as a reagent for high-school level chemistry demonstrations), acetic acid, copper sulfate, levamisole, SALT, even run-of-the-mill OTC triple antibiotic ointment meant for humans.

That said, for people who don't have other exotic animals, or who perhaps only keep a few fish with low disease frequency, buying the whole textbook would not be worth it, no. If I weren't afraid of the publishing gargantuan that is Elsevier, I would simply scan some of the fish and invertebrate section pages and post them here.
 
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No, probably not much more involved than that. I would be very gently wiping away the fungus using a small square of gauze soaked in betadine. Just debriding the diseased tissue away to leave a clean, healthy fin margin. It'd definitely be delicate work, with such a small fish. The vet warned me that it's surprisingly easy to pull the fin completely off, if you aren't careful. I'm used to very fine, delicate work like that under a microscope though, which is why I'd feel comfortable attempting it.

And no, the fish wouldn't feel it at all. Regardless of innervation in the fins, MS-222 is an analgesic as well as an anesthetic. That's another point in its favor over eugenol, which is likely not actually analgesic for the fish.

Really glad you were able to speak to an aquatic vet! Plus with your background and being able to use a microscope, I have every confidence in you.

I was watching a documentary about oarfish the other day, was a brilliant doc (did you know they swim vertically, rather than horizontally?? Surprised me! And it looks both strange, and beautiful - almost otherworldly) and they were collecting fin clippings from living, wild specimens to collect DNA and do analysis on them. I imagined the surgery was going to be like that, but obviously much smaller, and having to do it while scuba diving at huge depths...! :lol:


That might be true, but the book does include dosing/application information for a lot of non-antibiotic medications that can be used on fish as well. Iodine, hydrogen peroxide, formalin, malachite green, methylene blue, potassium permanganate (readily available, often as a reagent for high-school level chemistry demonstrations), acetic acid, copper sulfate, levamisole, SALT, even run-of-the-mill OTC triple antibiotic ointment meant for humans.

That said, for people who don't have other exotic animals, or who perhaps only keep a few fish with low disease frequency, buying the whole textbook would not be worth it, no. If I weren't afraid of the publishing gargantuan that is Elsevier, I would simply scan some of the fish and invertebrate section pages and post them here.
*cough* I might pm you, if you don't mind, if a disease flares up in one of tanks *cough* ;)
 
Well, I just made the most stupid mistake imaginable. I set up the methylene blue bath and forgot to dechlorinate the water... I lost the fish with the fin rot, as well as one other fish I was treating for similar fungal concerns following an injury it sustained on its own.

I'm not looking for condolences, as it's fully my fault. I just can't believe I forgot, is all. I have never forgotten to dechlorinate water before... And I had been so proud of not losing any of these fish since I got them, too. I should've taken note of their odd behavior sooner. Looking back, they were showing neurological symptoms almost from the start. I just chalked the erratic swimming up to the stress of being in a separate container. Once I realized my mistake, I immediately brought them to the main tank water, but it was too late for them to recover.

I guess I'm just surprised at how quickly everything progressed. They were in the chlorinated water for no more than ~5 minutes, but I suppose that's the trouble with tiny fish who have tiny bodies. Safe to say I'll never make that mistake again, but man, I'm just disappointed in myself. They didn't have to die. The little guy with fin rot should've gotten the chance to heal...
Well, they're both in one of my potted plants now, so at least their deaths will be met happily by something.

My group is now down to five fish. I don't yet know if it's worth replacing the two I killed, since I suspect I'll have to rehome the remaining fish anyway, when I move in about a year. I'll think about it.
Edit: I'm actually already leaning towards getting more. The tank just doesn't look right, and I'm finding that the small number is stressing me out. Five neons might as well be one neon.
 
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Oh no, I'm sorry. :( :rip:

I know you don't want condolences because of the guilt, but it's because I know you'll be feeling horrible about it, and I know that there isn't a fishkeeping in history who hasn't killed a fish through one mistake or another. I know I have, cried tears over it, felt awful - and learned lessons when it did happen.

I'll give you a real example where I killed some fish. I'm sure I've mentioned it on the forums before as an example in cases like this. So early into my time in the hobby, I'd been breeding guppies for a little while, doing the thing where you try to save and count each batch of fry, and was very attached to my group of six lovely females who were popping out fry like the Millions Fish they were.

But I'd reached the point where I'd got a bit overconfident and relaxed as the numbers got overwhelming and my attention was divided among more tanks. Noticed the sponge covering the intake on the small canister filter I had had a split down the side, so I rubber banded it on tight and pressed the split part against the back glass. Impressed myself with my thrifty and quick thinking solution, I didn't make a note to order or pick up a replacement sponge, and kept forgetting.

Then maybe 2-3 weeks later it was filter cleaning day, I opened it to find a load of guppy fry inside the canister. Panicked, felt awful - some were alive and seemingly well, and I rushed to scoop them all back into the main tank. But several had died, and some had survived, but been injured, and passed away soon after from their injuries/secondary fungal infections. Of course at some point while doing tank maintence or netting fish or something, I'd knocked the filter intake, the split part of the sponge had shifted and opened just enough to let a good amount of guppy fry get sucked through the pipes and into the filter. I hadn't noticed, hadn't replaced the sponge straight away, and since there were so many guppy fry in that tank with the adult females, I hadn't noticed that 20 or so had vanished. So I felt awful. My mistakes and laziness/lack of urgency had killed some of my baby fish.

But we're only human, human error is a thing, and you learn lessons each time. There are also a lot of people in some areas of the hobby who love to jump all over anyone who makes a mistake, even if it's a true accident, human error, and they already feel badly about it! And that always bothers me, because I'm convinced they've all made mistakes too. Just won't admit it publicly.

One thing no one can doubt is your love for, dedication to, and willingness to go above and beyond for your fish. This whole thread is a testament to that!

So I do want you to process your natural feelings of guilt and grief, by all means, but to not beat yourself up over it for too long... okay?

Also don't forget that the brain plays tricks when we do things that are routine to us, but ever so slightly different. That often makes us forget steps that we'd usually make on autopilot, and because you usually do it so routinely, but the routine is off this time, the brain just... skips. Like a vinyl record. Horrible example to use, but one that can explain the brain processing better, is the cases of babies left in hot cars by accident. The research seems to show that it happens most frequently when the routine has been changed last minute. Say a parent who doesn't usually take the kid to daycare, but has to one day as the usual parent can't. So they strap the kid in the car planning to drop them at daycare on the way to work, but as they drive to work daily, the brain goes on autopilot, since this is a task and routine it does daily, usual thoughts about planning your workday, what you're going to make for dinner etc kick in, and they autopilot drive to work. Kid has fallen asleep or is quiet in the back, parent does usual routine of grabbing bag/keys/wallet and heads into work, forgetting all about the kid in the back.

Sure, it can happen in negligence/potential homicide cases too, but it's been frequently seen enough for the patterns to have emerged, and fits with a lot of what we know about memory processing, and how routines and habits don't require our full, undivided brain power, and the brain will conserve energy and focus attention on other matters. Anyhow, sorry for the grim example, but they're doing things like adding a "check the backseat" thing to some cars now, and there are tips like putting some essential item in the back when you have your kid in the car, as a way to prompt you into a new routine of checking the backseat each time.

I suspect something like that is how you forgot the declorinator. Yes you declorinate each time, but you were only using a small container this time, likely thinking ahead to the other parts of it, and because declorinator is usually such an automatic process for you when it comes to tank stuff, your brain was like "routine detail, SKIP! Focus on new thing we're about to do". Which is why it's the one basic you always do, that was so easily forgotten this time around. It just sucks that it was the time it was a small container and not enough water volume to dilute the chlorine. I'm sorry. :(


My group is now down to five fish. I don't yet know if it's worth replacing the two I killed, since I suspect I'll have to rehome the remaining fish anyway, when I move in about a year. I'll think about it.
Edit: I'm actually already leaning towards getting more. The tank just doesn't look right, and I'm finding that the small number is stressing me out. Five neons might as well be one neon.

I'm really glad you changed your mind in the edit!
A year is a long time, and the first thought was more likely because you feel awful about it. A year is a long time, you've been loving this hobby and doing well. It's a sad setback, but an honest mistake.

I've heard several times now that neons are generally getting weaker - and we do see health issues crop up in them a lot here... I know this wasn't the result of anything like that, but I've also been thinking about the conversations in the fish TB thread, and whether the general weakened state of neons, that used to be considered really hardy, essential in every community tank kind of fish. But @GaryE @Colin_T have you guys also noticed/heard about general consensus of neons not being very healthy fish anymore? Might be unconnected to fish TB - I'm sure I've also read opinions that it's because they've been mass farmed for so long due to demand, and it might have weakened the genetics/general stock?

And I mention that before you replace with more neons, in case you decide you want to try another species with the ones you have left, rather than replacing with neons just because you already have neons, you know? For example, cardinals are usually still regarded as hardier than neons now I think - personally, I prefer their looks and swimming motions - but they'll happily pal around and swim with the neons too. So you could bump up the numbers that way.

When I inherited dad's tank, it came with the last few remaining elderly tetra from larger schools he'd had, so I had an odd mix of a few of each tetra species, like a pick n' mix of one cardinal, a black neon, three glowlight tetra (the real glowlight tetra, not the neon DNA altered ones), just two bronze cories, etc. I got more cories to keep the two company since I planned to keep cories myself, but I didn't want to bump the school numbers of those tetra species, since I didn't want to be stuck keeping those species forever myself, just for the sake of keeping the numbers up, since that would never end.

Byron was super helpful there. Pointed out that letting these elderly tetra remain in the tank they'd always been in, with other fish they'd lived with for years of different species, was kinder than buying a load of juveniles of a species I didn't want, to add the wrong sort of water. And rehoming a single elderly cardinal to someone with an existing group, even if I found someone who'd agree to take it, might be much more stressful for the elderly fish that's suddenly been added to a school of youngsters that might pick on it, as well as the stress of the move and new environment. And the remaining tetras did pal around together, for the most part!

So if there are other species you've thought you might want to keep that would work in your tank and with neons, it would be worth considering now whether you want to just bump the neon school up, or if you'd like to add another variety. Since the tank is more established too, you might be able to bump the number of neons, and add a school of something else, perhaps.
 
Thank you for your kind words. They do help.

I suspect something like that is how you forgot the declorinator. Yes you declorinate each time, but you were only using a small container this time, likely thinking ahead to the other parts of it, and because declorinator is usually such an automatic process for you when it comes to tank stuff, your brain was like "routine detail, SKIP! Focus on new thing we're about to do". Which is why it's the one basic you always do, that was so easily forgotten this time around. It just sucks that it was the time it was a small container and not enough water volume to dilute the chlorine. I'm sorry. :(
I do think this is exactly what happened. I'm so used to the reality that whatever water my fish are in is safe for them, and I was focused on getting the MB prepped and the airstone set up. The kicker is that I DID remember the dechlorinator for the first bath treatment a couple days ago (this was supposed to be the second), so I'm not sure what it was about this time that allowed me to forget.

An additional sting, a detail I just remembered today, is that my rescue girl's old owner even told me that she didn't add dechlor during water changes when I asked her about her routine. Just seems a bit unfair that negligent behavior doesn't have any consequences, but a genuine accident does. Such is the way of the world 😅

A year is a long time, and the first thought was more likely because you feel awful about it. A year is a long time, you've been loving this hobby and doing well. It's a sad setback, but an honest mistake.
Well, I had been thinking about the probability of rehoming these fish long before this incident. I will have to move next June, and at this point, I'm not sure where yet. So, if it ends up being more than a few hours' drive away, I'll have to rehome the fish anyway. The reason I might change my mind on getting more fish is just so that my existing neons have a proper social group.

And I mention that before you replace with more neons, in case you decide you want to try another species with the ones you have left, rather than replacing with neons just because you already have neons, you know? For example, cardinals are usually still regarded as hardier than neons now I think - personally, I prefer their looks and swimming motions - but they'll happily pal around and swim with the neons too. So you could bump up the numbers that way.
Since the tank is more established too, you might be able to bump the number of neons, and add a school of something else, perhaps.
Truth be told, neons have really grown on me as a species. I honestly couldn't imagine any other tetra in the tank at this point. I'm sure this is an unpopular statement, but even cardinals just look like strange, alien neons to me haha. That said, I might look into an additional species, just not a schooling one. I've been considering bolivian rams for a bit, so I might take the opportunity to add one or two to the mix if I end up getting new fish anyway.

Regarding health and robustness of neons: the shop I got mine from seems to have a pretty decent supplier and keeps good stock, so I'm not too worried, thankfully.
 
Thank you for your kind words. They do help.


I do think this is exactly what happened. I'm so used to the reality that whatever water my fish are in is safe for them, and I was focused on getting the MB prepped and the airstone set up. The kicker is that I DID remember the dechlorinator for the first bath treatment a couple days ago (this was supposed to be the second), so I'm not sure what it was about this time that allowed me to forget.

Any factor could have thrown you off. A distraction at the wrong moment, or more confident in the process the second time around, so brain autopiloted on the easy step and didn't flag that you'd forgotten it.


We all know the times we've walked into a room, then stood there for a moment, and thought "wait, what did I come in here for again??" You know you went there to fetch or do something, but you've blanked? Then at times it's only when you go back to the original room that you remember what you'd been going there for?

I remember reading a fascinating study on it while studying psych at Uni. There's something about thresholds that can trip your memory up as well. All kinds of thresholds. I can't remember all that much about the study, but I noticed how authentic it seemed to me, and I figured it's likely something to do with the automatic "threat assessment scans" that our senses and hindbrain are always scanning for at an unconscious level. You know you're just moving around your own home, and relaxed, but we're still not that many years older that early hominids, and moving from one space to another naturally means checking for anything potentially dangerous. Animals do it too.

Not just throwing fun facts out there, I say it because learning that helped me with my rubbish memory. If I'm going to be doing some task or project, I'll prep first by bringing the items I need to the same room before I get started, so I'm less likely to forget an important step or part. Like laying out the bits you need for a piece of flatpack furniture and making sure you have all the twiddly and easy lost bits ready and waiting, and work through step by step.
Well, I had been thinking about the probability of rehoming these fish long before this incident. I will have to move next June, and at this point, I'm not sure where yet.

But you know that you'll be there for at least a year, and sounds as though if you end up moving somewhere reasonably transportable, you might keep the tank and fish? So no need to deny yourself of the hobby for a year and rehome them right now. But even if you do need to rehome them in a year, you'll get to enjoy them for this year, give them a good start, then rehome a school of lovely, well fed and cared for fish to someone who will appreciate and take care of them, since I'm sure you'd make sure they went to a suitable home.
Truth be told, neons have really grown on me as a species. I honestly couldn't imagine any other tetra in the tank at this point. I'm sure this is an unpopular statement, but even cardinals just look like strange, alien neons to me haha. That said, I might look into an additional species, just not a schooling one. I've been considering bolivian rams for a bit, so I might take the opportunity to add one or two to the mix if I end up getting new fish anyway.

Regarding health and robustness of neons: the shop I got mine from seems to have a pretty decent supplier and keeps good stock, so I'm not too worried, thankfully.

Nothing wrong with that! Bolivian rams are lovely, and would give you a different behaviour, while being pretty and peaceful. But nothing wrong with sticking with neons too! :)
 

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