Loose stools and treatment-resistant fin rot

Betadine isn't commonly used for fish. It was suggested to me for an injury to a red eared slider turtle many years ago, and she recovered. I had read of iodine being used by 1930s aquarists, and I have tried it on a couple of infected wounds on fish with success. I keep it out of the eye and gill area, and use it on caudals, mainly.

What's off with your neon is he is alone in this. Usually Flavibacter starts showing up on other fish.

Is it a one off treatment? It may do nothing, it may work once, it may need several treatments. It's a suggestion I'd use in desperation to keep that pathogen from reaching the peduncle. Is it bacterial or fungal? I can't say, but it looks largely unaffected by a good antibiotic mix.

I'd even consider a fin snip and something topical.
After you suggested it, I did look into its use for fin rot and found a couple promising anecdotes. I think I'll give it a shot after a week or so of daily water changes once the antibiotic treatment is done. I'll try it without a fin snip at first, since I'm not confident in my ability to get a clean cut. I assume that would simply involve cutting away the damaged tissue, yes? I'd worry about getting good margins too, with the rot creeping up on the peduncle like it is. However, if the betadine doesn't work on its own, I'm willing to try my best for this little guy.

There's a class on fishes happening at my institution right now, and I know the TA. They've been using an anesthetic for fish, which I could almost certainly nip a few milligrams of. The handy thing about working at a scientific institution is that I have access to very precise scales. So, it's not out of the realm of possibility for me to be able to anesthetize and get a better fin snip that way.

That said, the reason I would want to wait until after a week or so of daily water changes is because I noticed what looks to potentially be some regrowth this morning. I'm trying not to get my hopes up, but if he can fight off the rest of whatever is going on with the help of really clean water, then that would be great.

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I would try one dose of Maracyn (erythromycin) and wait a week. Erythromycin cures tail rot too and primarily attacks gram-positive bacteria. Kanamycin attacks primarily gram-negative bacteria. I have used both antibiotics when one didn't work and then the other succeeded.
The trouble with fin rot is that it can be caused by a whole suite of different bacteria. Most off-the-shelf fish antibiotics claim to cure fin rot, and they probably aren't lying (technically) because there's always a chance that you get lucky and match a drug to the bacteria it targets. It's frustrating that culturing and sensitivity testing isn't available or is cost-prohibitive for most hobbyists, because that's what's needed for most cases of fin rot. Overall, though, most bacterial infections in fish are gram-negative, so something like erythromycin probably isn't going to be very effective. I will keep it in mind, but I also don't want to "shotgun" antibiotics. I've already employed three (albeit with a long break between the first and second two), and "shotgunning" is a great way to build antibiotic resistance.
 
There might not be anything useful to you in here, but I've found the different techniques helpful even though I'm generally adab hand with the net from toddlerhood in the shop, lol. And Aquarium Co Op's content can be hit or miss, depending, but he covers so many techniques with a net here, to cause the minimum amount of panic to the fish, that I don't think there any many people who couldn't find something in this video handy... worth a share just in case anything helps, and you have to net him - I especially like his tips for when you ease several fish into the net, then can select which to release from the net, and how, leaving just the one(s) you're after in the net.

Most of this for you will be teaching your grandma to suck eggs, but just in case you or anyone else finds it as useful I did
Yes! I wish I had found this video before I had to move everyone because the stress of moving and trying to net this guy was what caused his tail injury in the first place. I won't lie, there is some guilt there, knowing that I caused this by not netting him more carefully.

But it is a good video, and I will absolutely be reviewing it multiple times if I have to net him for a topical treatment.
 
I don't know how a neon fin reacts, but I have bred some very violent Cichlids one of which would enter the peaceful egg and fry guarding process with no caudal. It would be right down to the peduncle. And a few weeks later, the caudal would be back, fully developed. Damage to the rays and soft tissue seem easily healed. But damage to the base is permanent.

Tetras may not have the quick repair adaptation, because they don't rip each others' faces off on a regular basis. But they do sustain damage from predators, so maybe they have good recuperative abilities. In that last photo though, it looks like it's reached the base.
 
The trouble with fin rot is that it can be caused by a whole suite of different bacteria. Most off-the-shelf fish antibiotics claim to cure fin rot, and they probably aren't lying (technically) because there's always a chance that you get lucky and match a drug to the bacteria it targets. It's frustrating that culturing and
I had an marbled angelfish that had severe tail rot, and I used Maracyn and Maracyn 2 afterward to cure the fish. The angel was literally doing the death dance before I started treating her. She wouldn't eat and after treatment, she slowly began eating and recovered. I also rescued a distressed discus from a petstore that had bad tailrot. Maracyn alone cured that fish fast. They say Maracyn is a broad spectrum antibiotic that attacks gram-positive bacteria so I had results with it.

from Fritz:
Can I use Maracyn® and Maracyn® 2 simultaneously?
Yes. Maracyn® targets gram-positive bacteria and Maracyn® 2 targets mostly gram-negative bacteria. They may be used in conjunction with one another. However, in doing so, the balance of beneficial bacteria in your aquarium, including nitrifying bacteria to remove ammonia and nitrite will be adversely impacted. Fritz strongly recommends the following: *For freshwater aquariums, have on hand and ready to use FritzZyme® 7 to replace the nitrifying bacteria that naturally remove ammonia and nitrite and FritzZyme® 360 to replace the other

I came to realize that our static water column is loaded with bacteria, which we attempt to keep at bay with weekly water changes.
 

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Damage to the rays and soft tissue seem easily healed. But damage to the base is permanent.

In that last photo though, it looks like it's reached the base.
I that case, do you still recommend betadine if there are no further signs of improvement, or is this a lost cause at this point?
 
I'll always try heroic measures, especially if I don't actually have to act like a hero. I would try betadine now. It isn't antibiotic, and shouldn't interact, as a topical. But if I am truly honest, your guess is as good as mine. The fish may be a goner, but it looks vibrant, the colour is good and it's carrying a healthy weight. I don't think a quick netting, a drip of betadine and a return to the tank will harm it in any way. Repeated treatments probably won't either.

As usual, we don't know exactly what the infection is, so we don't know how it'll react, or progress.
 
I'll always try heroic measures, especially if I don't actually have to act like a hero. I would try betadine now. It isn't antibiotic, and shouldn't interact, as a topical. But if I am truly honest, your guess is as good as mine. The fish may be a goner, but it looks vibrant, the colour is good and it's carrying a healthy weight. I don't think a quick netting, a drip of betadine and a return to the tank will harm it in any way. Repeated treatments probably won't either.

As usual, we don't know exactly what the infection is, so we don't know how it'll react, or progress.
That's fair. I'll make some time to grab the betadine today. It is a tough situation precisely because this fish is still so active and vibrant. If it were acting poorly, not eating, etc. without improvement, I'd feel much better about calling it quits and humanely euthanizing. He clearly wants to live though, and it makes me inclined to keep trying. Thank you for your time and effort in your responses. I'll definitely keep the thread updated.
 
Yes! I wish I had found this video before I had to move everyone because the stress of moving and trying to net this guy was what caused his tail injury in the first place. I won't lie, there is some guilt there, knowing that I caused this by not netting him more carefully.

But it is a good video, and I will absolutely be reviewing it multiple times if I have to net him for a topical treatment.

Please try to let go of the guilt - accidents happen, netting or not, and the video wasn't to make you feel bad about the injury! It's to help boost your confidence about netting him and/or other fish again if you need to, for any future treatment. ♥️
 
Please try to let go of the guilt - accidents happen, netting or not, and the video wasn't to make you feel bad about the injury! It's to help boost your confidence about netting him and/or other fish again if you need to, for any future treatment. ♥️
No, I knew you weren't sharing the video to make me feel guilty, don't worry! And, well, I'm at least now able to report back and say with certainty that Cory's technique works amazingly. I was able to isolate and guide the ailing fellow fairly easily. Even I wasn't very stressed during the whole process, which is really saying something. Little guy was really calm in the net the entire time, even when out of water.

I could only find 10% betadine, so I diluted it 1:1 with tank water to get it to 5%, which is the veterinary concentration. Put a couple drops on his caudal fin and let it sit for a few seconds before releasing him back into the tank. I'm going to be monitoring him closely for the next few hours for sure, but I think he did really well.

It's still tough to tell whether there's regrowth happening. The evening lighting makes it difficult to see, but there is a clear bit of extra tissue hanging on the end of his fin that wasn't there yesterday. That said, it looks really flimsy, so maybe it isn't regrowth at all. Still keeping my fingers crossed. Depending on how things look over the next couple days, I might repeat the betadine treatment a few more times.

Edit: No, it wasn't regrowth after all. The bit of tissue just fell off. The fin doesn't look any smaller, thankfully, but now I'm worried that the netting and betadine, despite being gentle, might have destroyed the little bit of growth I thought I saw this morning. Sigh... I guess we'll see tomorrow.
 
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It's a risk all around. But if the fin is still capable of regrowing, it will. If a few days' growth is knocked off, it comes back as long as the base isn't too damaged.

I hope I haven't suggested a useless ordeal for the poor guy, but for those of us in no pet store antibiotic zones, we try things in extreme situations.
 
Went ahead and added a fourth dose of kanamycin. The manufacturers (Seachem) have stated that treatment beyond the 6 days is acceptable as long as the fish are showing no signs of stress, and I also found a document published by Florida International University that states kanamycin bath treatments should be 10 days long. The nitrofurazone treatment will be completed on Sunday as well, which is my normal water change day anyway, so I'll do a deep clean of the tank then and continue with at least a week of daily 25% water changes and see what happens. Probably will also be repeat the betadine treatments.
 
A series of good and bad news.

Bad: The fin has not gotten better or grown back much at all
Good: The fin has not gotten worse, and appears to have stopped deteriorating, although it was relatively slow progression to begin with, so I'm not 100% sure if this is the case
Bad: the fish definitely still needs additional treatment beyond water changes

Good: I had the great privilege of speaking with an aquatics veterinarian earlier today who used to work with freshwater fish (now saltwater). I probably annoyed him slightly with all my questions, but he was kind enough to give me a "diagnosis" (not official, just advice from looking at a photo) and gave some brief comments on my treatment ideas.

Bad: I feel silly for not pursuing this line of diagnostics/treatment earlier, because it feels so obvious now.
Essentially, the vet said it was likely fungal. He said it's certainly possible that there was a bacterial infection there that I have controlled (and I'm inclined to think so, considering the fin started out a bit ragged), but that the rot appears predominantly fungal in nature at this point in time. Perhaps it was picked up as a secondary infection at some point.

I happen to have methylene blue on hand that I ordered prophylactically and now I'm glad I did. So, I'll start this fish on a series of short methylene blue baths, 15-20min in length, using dosage according to Carpenter's Exotic Animal Formulary. He'll get three such baths, one every 48 hours. If those don't work to clear up the rot, I'll attempt anesthesia and manual debridement using betadine.
 
It's interesting. We have a strange collective approach to sick fish. When I was in my teens, the great problems were Ich, fungus and velvet. Fungus treatments, which I now suspect were based on acriflavene, a med now considered carcinogenic for humans (extreme low risk, but) were standards on shelves.
Tetra fungi-stop was in every pet store.

Then, maybe because of the ingredients, it vanished. So did fungal diseases, from the minds of aquarists. I fell into that discussing this illness. I thought bacterial. But I'll wager a lot of what we think of as bacterial is probably fungal, as far as external infections go. It's put me on a train of thought I'll indulge myself by sharing. I'm always writing here not just for the one conversation, but for any new aquarists looking in.

We also stopped worrying about velvet (Oodinium), a parasite that remains very common and very destructive. I've mentioned it as a possibility to a number of disease queries, and people tend to ignore me and look for something else. They haven't even heard of it. I've seen it in stores, and it's arrived here every now and then. It likes soft water. It's actually out there, lurking and living.

Mycobacter (fish tb) makes the industry people run screaming with their hands over their ears. It has so many symptoms and is so hard to diagnose in a living fish that it's easily swept under the carpet. It's a big killer of our "disposable" fish, and is a huge threat to captive breeding programs for extinct or critically endangered species, as far those exist. But it is in the "don't mention that" category for us.

Imagine if human medicine identified four or five diseases, and thought that was it? That's where we are with aquarium treatments. It's really odd. It's a good reminder, as tough as it is for your poor fish, that fungal diseases are still out there. I'll smack myself on the side of the head for not thinking of fungus as a possibility. And then hope your fish gets through this.
 
happen to have methylene blue on hand that I ordered prophylactically and now I'm glad I did. So, I'll start this fish on a series of short methylene blue baths, 15-20min in length, using dosage according to Carpenter's Exotic Animal Formulary. He'll get three such baths, one every 48 hours. If those don't work to clear up the rot, I'll attempt anesthesia and manual debridement using betadine.
I like the vet's diagnosis. Hopefully, the methylene blue will work. Ich-X has malachite green and can be used as an anti-fungal treatment. I would consider using Maracyn Oxy for the fungal treatment as an option as well before trying anything surgical. 🐠
 
It's interesting. We have a strange collective approach to sick fish. When I was in my teens, the great problems were Ich, fungus and velvet. Fungus treatments, which I now suspect were based on acriflavene, a med now considered carcinogenic for humans (extreme low risk, but) were standards on shelves.
Tetra fungi-stop was in every pet store.

Then, maybe because of the ingredients, it vanished. So did fungal diseases, from the minds of aquarists. I fell into that discussing this illness. I thought bacterial. But I'll wager a lot of what we think of as bacterial is probably fungal, as far as external infections go. It's put me on a train of thought I'll indulge myself by sharing. I'm always writing here not just for the one conversation, but for any new aquarists looking in.

We also stopped worrying about velvet (Oodinium), a parasite that remains very common and very destructive. I've mentioned it as a possibility to a number of disease queries, and people tend to ignore me and look for something else. They haven't even heard of it. I've seen it in stores, and it's arrived here every now and then. It likes soft water. It's actually out there, lurking and living.

Mycobacter (fish tb) makes the industry people run screaming with their hands over their ears. It has so many symptoms and is so hard to diagnose in a living fish that it's easily swept under the carpet. It's a big killer of our "disposable" fish, and is a huge threat to captive breeding programs for extinct or critically endangered species, as far those exist. But it is in the "don't mention that" category for us.

Imagine if human medicine identified four or five diseases, and thought that was it? That's where we are with aquarium treatments. It's really odd. It's a good reminder, as tough as it is for your poor fish, that fungal diseases are still out there. I'll smack myself on the side of the head for not thinking of fungus as a possibility. And then hope your fish gets through this.
You're completely right in your assessment of the hobby, I think. It does feel like there is such a narrow scope of what we keep at the forefront of our minds as hobbyists in terms of disease. There are only a handful—maybe a dozen at most—of diseases that are even talked about as "options" for what could be going wrong with a fish. And, what I have personally felt, is that even within those few diseases, the scope of how those diseases might show up is presented as rather limited.

Personally, I think I didn't give much consideration to fungus in this case because almost all of the hobbyist-focused education currently available paints "fish fungus" as something that presents as fuzzy tufts of growth. It's true that saprolegnia is probably the most common aquatic fungus that infects fish, and as far as I know, it almost always has a growth form that projects out from the body in a way that looks like fuzzy cotton. It's reasonable that education is focused on it, but surely there are more infectious fungi out there, and they are almost never considered as a possibility within hobbyist spaces. I'll definitely be re-examining some of my assumptions here, and with other diseases.

Regarding the diseases that lurk: I think people don't like to admit to themselves that potentially infectious agents live in their tanks at all. People like to believe their tanks clean and free of disease. Even the threat of illness in their tanks would be considered offensive. The implication that they aren't doing enough, that they aren't eliminating all risk, is frightening. It is the reality though. Flavobacterium, mycobacterium, oodinium, etc. are all facts of life in aquatic environments, and short of UV sterilizers, they will always be present. I think if people were more comfortable with admitting that there are risks in their tanks, there would actually be more positive effort put towards prevention. But you're right, they (especially mycobacterium) are treated as taboo. Certainly no supplier would ever admit such a risk exists within their stock.

I'll prepare the first MB bath for this fish tomorrow, and I do really hope that this is the solution I've been looking for. This poor fish has been through a lot, and has remained so chipper throughout it all.

For anyone listening (reading) in on this conversation: I recommend picking up a copy of the Exotic Animal Formulary. It's only around $50USD (surprisingly cheap for what is essentially a veterinary textbook) and it contains an extensive list of antimicrobial, antiparasitic, and anesthetic chemicals used for fish, as well as tested dosages and recommendations for use. It is NOT a diagnostic tool, but if you are going to be using a medication using your own judgement—especially an antibiotic—it's worth knowing the proper dosage for it and what method of application is best for certain treatment goals.
 
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