Looking For Insights

[lots_to_learn]

In January I started a 55 gallon aquarium and filled it with community fish (mollys, neons, plattys, and glo fish). I have had some ups and downs but love my tank and friends a bunch. Right now I have a setup that I am used to and grew up with. I have an undergravel filtration system run with air pumps, tubing, and the carbon filters. It is bedded with your standard aquarium gravel and I have a variety of fake plants and a few decorations. Overall the aquarium is quite open with the exception of a tightly clustered fake plant for hiding fry.

My problems: I have had two encounters that I am sure was brought on by buying sick beta fish. The first beta had a fungal infection. I noticed after a few days of putting him in the aquarium he started acting very odd and showed some swim bladder issues. I put him in a beta bowl and watched carefully doing water changes every day. Then I noticed the fungus and started treatment but it was too late. Luckily the tank remained unaffected. The second beta brought velvet with him which spread throughout the tank. I treated and the treatment was succesfull and he started to thrive...however, only to get into a battle with the australian rainbow fish inherrited from a sibling and both suffered deadly injuries.

It has been about 2 months since the second beta fish died and I have had no problems except I have started loosing fish starting with my male balloon molly dying suddenly of dropsy and now my female balloon molly sick and having swim bladder issues but no sign of bloating or pineconing. Observing the other fish closely and noticing bloat in my neons after eating, stringy poo in most of the fish, and clamped fins, I suspect an internal bacterial infection. How it was brought on I am unsure. Just before I started having these problems I made several changes to the tank (ie: I added a tank divider for the fry, the cluttered fake plant for the fry and I added aquarium salt hoping that would encourage my mollys to birth their overdue fry. Could adding the salt have caused the bigger issues with my mollys? Or maybe the plant having something? I rinsed it thouroughly before adding it to the tank. Anyway, back on subject...


I was thinking of having live plants because I heard they are really beneficial to the fish for several reasons and also help keep the water oxygenated. This is to start my series of questions:

Would live plants be okay with the undergravel filtering system?

I was looking up live plant aquariums and most use sand and some type of plant media. Since my experience is soley on gravel how does this work as far as cleaning and maintenance? I am used to cleaning with a syphyon and digging it into the rocks/gravel to remove the fish waste and in doing so performs the 25% water change. I'm sure this changes when using sand and other media since it would only get sucked right out of the tank. So how does cleaning the fish waste from the bottom of the tank work?

From a maintenance perspective: which is easier to maintain, requires less time/work, promotes less health issues, etc?

Also, as far as breeding and fry are concerned...I would think using fake plants would be the best for allowing fry hiding places since you can get conjested type plants for them to hide. Could I mix the two? How about floating type live plants? I heard they can be messy but provide lots of advantages for several types of fish because they can eat from the roots, gain nutrients, and the plants still promote higher O2 and lower CO2 levels. Suggestions? Oh, and other types of live plants...would it be fine to keep them in the pots with my system?

With my current system I am thinking of removing the divider when I can manage to obtain more plants for the fry and populate the tank with more decorations then what I have. I believe my current community desires more plant cover anyway.

I am working on a bit of a budget so I can't afford a nice fancy, high-tec setup and my time is somewhat valuable so the less maintenance and worry-free the better.

Would I be doing better to change my aquarium set-up or stick to what I have or mix...? So, I definately have a lot of ideas but not sure which direction to go. What are your takes and suggestions?

 

[twodoctors]

I can only tell you my experience as I am no expert either. I have live plants from day 1 and I have no CO2 or expensive substrate. The plants I chose (see signature) are thriving and I always get zero nitrate. I used coarse gravel, then coarse sand/fine gravel, and my other tank I use play sand. No problems so far (5 months).

For me, it's real plant every time.

Adrian

 

[welshfish1]

+1 above I have gravel with live plants and no co2 and they thrive I am forever having to cut them back because they grow so quick. I have java moss for fry to hide and they seem to do well with it.

 

[snowflake311]

Plants will only help keep water clean and add O2 if the plants are healthy and growing well. You need to care for your plants you can't just throw any old plant in a tank and expect it to grow. Well java moss with just grow about any where.

Under ground filters are NOT good for plants at all. When you have a planted tank you don't have to worry so much about getting all the junk out of the gravel. Digging in the gravel to clean will just hurt the roots. The fish poop and food will become food for the plants. It's best to just try and get any fish poop thats on top of the substrate.

If you have having problems with keeping fish I would look into why. Getting plants are not a cure all.

 

[Caprichoso]

These plants are good if you have an under gravel filter: Marimo moss ball, Java moss, (most mosses are great), Java Fern, Anubias, Hornwort, Najas Grass. An easy, attractive floating plant is water lettuce(not the big pond variety). The leaves are bigger and there is no mess. There are other plants you can keep but that's just what I've come up with off the top of my head. You can also pot up some stem plants and then just put root tabs in the pot with the soil. As far as mixing fake plants with new, you can do that, but I guarantee that once you see how nice the real ones are, and how much more your fish like them, you won't want the fake ones. I only use gravel. It's easier to clean with a gravel vac and the colour varieties are endless. I prefer the 3-5mm river gravel. It's small enough for corydoras to move about without injury to barbels and it doesn't get sucked up by gravel vac or possibly end up in your filter. Planting in it is very easy too.

Now, about the problems you're having. First, don't add salt. They don't need it. Molly's should have no issues giving birth on their own, they breed like rabbits. Second, ditch the carbon filter. The only time you should use it is if you medicate a tank. After the round of meds is done, you need to get the meds out. The carbon will help remove the meds. Although, I recommend a separate tank for sick fish. Third, you may want to consider the place you're getting your fish from. Is it reputable? Usually, the big chain stores sell crap. When you buy fish that haven't been taken care of properly, you are putting your success in a slot machine and pulling the handle. Know what I mean? It's a huge gamble.

You also need to increase the amount of water you take out to 50%. This has to be done each week, along with the gravel vac.

Good luck

 

[lots_to_learn]

These plants are good if you have an under gravel filter: Marimo moss ball, Java moss, (most mosses are great), Java Fern, Anubias, Hornwort, Najas Grass. An easy, attractive floating plant is water lettuce(not the big pond variety). The leaves are bigger and there is no mess. There are other plants you can keep but that's just what I've come up with off the top of my head. You can also pot up some stem plants and then just put root tabs in the pot with the soil. As far as mixing fake plants with new, you can do that, but I guarantee that once you see how nice the real ones are, and how much more your fish like them, you won't want the fake ones. I only use gravel. It's easier to clean with a gravel vac and the colour varieties are endless. I prefer the 3-5mm river gravel. It's small enough for corydoras to move about without injury to barbels and it doesn't get sucked up by gravel vac or possibly end up in your filter. Planting in it is very easy too.

Now, about the problems you're having. First, don't add salt. They don't need it. Molly's should have no issues giving birth on their own, they breed like rabbits. Second, ditch the carbon filter. The only time you should use it is if you medicate a tank. After the round of meds is done, you need to get the meds out. The carbon will help remove the meds. Although, I recommend a separate tank for sick fish. Third, you may want to consider the place you're getting your fish from. Is it reputable? Usually, the big chain stores sell crap. When you buy fish that haven't been taken care of properly, you are putting your success in a slot machine and pulling the handle. Know what I mean? It's a huge gamble.

You also need to increase the amount of water you take out to 50%. This has to be done each week, along with the gravel vac.

Good luck

Wow thanks! Lots of information for me!! So I can just run the undergravel system without the carbon filters that go in the tubs? Interesting... I have bought the fish from a petsmart about an hour from me that is usually really good on their fish. Well, the neons are walmart bought back at the end of January when walmart JUST got the shipment so they were nice and healthy! Not a single one has died or has had any kind of issue until lately when they eat and has trouble swimming down. All the rest are from the petsmart in february and have had no problems until now except the mollys holding their babies for 2 months instead of the 1 month I read online. And no salt? Hmm...new one again since I read all over they prever a little salt in the water and it helps against bacteria and fungal infections...but then again they were healthy until I added the salt in hopes to help the mollys have their babies.

Thanks for the help! Still unsure about the plants and what I will do in the long run, it's a lot to think about.

 

[Caprichoso]

It's a big change adding live plants but the results are fabulous. The plant list I gave you are very easy to grow and will give you and your fish lots of enjoyment. The least expensive ones I listed usually are the hornwort and java moss. I'm sure someone on the forum who lives in your area could sell you some for really cheap. You can also order online, usually you pay less that way too. So yeah, forget about the salt but increase your water changes. Don't add anymore fish for awhile(month or two), just wait to see how the rest of them get on. Hopefully no more deaths!

In place of the carbon, can you fit in some filter sponges or bio rings? That will give you a better biological filter over time.

 

[lots_to_learn]

Well, I put the dying molly in a breeder net box and gave her a pea so the other fish won't eat it. She's not really swimming around and is not showing any interest in the pea. I don't know what else to do other then leave her in the net and see if she manages to eat it and if that has any affect.

 

[Caprichoso]

You can try the pea, just don't leave it in the tank too long. Offer a fresh one, withe the skin off each day if you think she's constipated. The main thing because you don't know for certain what's wrong is to keep the water clean. You can safely do water changes of 25% each day. If there is ammonia, you would have to do much larger water changes until ammonia is at 0.

 

[lots_to_learn]

Thank you, I am working on the tank cleanings/water changes. I JUST tested the water with my test strips and the nitrate levels are somewhere between 0-20 and pH is at 7.5 or a tade bit higher but not 8. So, yeah...it's bad. However, when I tested the water just as the balloon mollys were getting sick the water tested normal. Only difference...I removed the carbon filters. Should I put them back in? I am starting another water change to help lower the water. Thankfully, my water is perfect states except a bit hard with minerals because it's well water but I have something that is helping with that.

Again, thank you. Oh, I have a video of my current sick molly. By some miracle she is still alive but not active unless I influence her. I am working on uploading it now.

 

[lots_to_learn]

Here are some videos I uploaded to youtube. Sorry for the quality. I used my cell phone since it's a smaller file then my digital camera so it uploaded faster.

The sick molly:

http/www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzLKAoBMP4Y

The rest of the fish:

http/www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz_Oi2V7c90

 

[lots_to_learn]

Okay, I did a 50% water change. This time not disturbing the rocks because I didn't want to mess up too much of the good bacteria. Instead I gently touched the syphon to the rocks to pick up larger fish waste from the surface to clean it up a bit more. I do the refill very slowly so the heaters can heat the water without too much of a temp drop. While refilling it I cooked another pea for the sickly. Towards finishing refilling the tank she started to become a little more lively, perhapes the colder water is the biggest influence. But I do believe that while she was a little more active trying to swim around and pick at the bottom of the net she may have gotten a tiny amount of pea and eaten it! I'll just have to see how she is doing in the morning and am thankfully she is still alive!

On another note: My plattys...don't know how I managed this mistake but they are actually both male. The mickey mouse platty just has a larger belly and I thought when I brought it home the rear fin was fanned out, but no...definately male. In any case, the two plattys are squaring up to each other with their fins completely fanned out and they are charging each other. I don't think they are hurting each other but what is the reasoning for this? Is it just because there is no female to breed?

 

[CrazyAirborne]

well one thing i noticed u mention, was ". I JUST tested the water with my test strips and the nitrate levels are somewhere between 0-20 and pH is at 7.5 or a tade bit higher but not 8. So, yeah...it's bad."

this statement isnt good for a couple reasons.

first off, most people have realized those test strips are highly inaccurate, and should be switched out for a liquid test kit, to give u alot better and more accurate results.

secondly, the nitrAte levels, being between 0-20, does not mean anything is wrong whatsoever. the things u need to worry about are Ammonia, and nitrIte, those are the two we always want to make sure are at ZERO, always.

just some things to think about/reconsider.

*edit. oh and Mollys are known to prefer slightly brackish (salt water) water.

 

[lots_to_learn]

well one thing i noticed u mention, was ". I JUST tested the water with my test strips and the nitrate levels are somewhere between 0-20 and pH is at 7.5 or a tade bit higher but not 8. So, yeah...it's bad."

this statement isnt good for a couple reasons.

first off, most people have realized those test strips are highly inaccurate, and should be switched out for a liquid test kit, to give u alot better and more accurate results.

secondly, the nitrAte levels, being between 0-20, does not mean anything is wrong whatsoever. the things u need to worry about are Ammonia, and nitrIte, those are the two we always want to make sure are at ZERO, always.

just some things to think about/reconsider.

*edit. oh and Mollys are known to prefer slightly brackish (salt water) water.

Okay, I read online the nitrate being high could be bad so that's why I said that. Anyway, I have learned the test strips arent the best for accuracy but I cant afford to make it to petsmart (the only local store that carries them but is an hour away) until thursday.

I tried adding salt to the water and things went downhill when they were fine without it...now, I did add some new decor as well but in any case, I have done the water changes without re-adding salt to see how things change and it seemed to improve slightly as far as fish behavior. Maybe water quality, non salt related, is the cause but after I confirm the water is fine with new test equipment I will look into slowly adding salt to the aquarium and see how that results. I've gone 5 months without it and the last two have been great until after the recent change so I am going back for now.

So far today my sick molly is a little more active like she is trying to swim but tires out and rests for a bit. I am becoming hopefull again.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

On another note: My plattys...don't know how I managed this mistake but they are actually both male. The mickey mouse platty just has a larger belly and I thought when I brought it home the rear fin was fanned out, but no...definately male.

One thing about livebearers, sometimes they are late to show themselves as male. So, depending on how old he was when you got him, he might have actually just be late developing and has now shown himself to actually be a male.