Looking For A Few Answers About Keeping Fish

[moochy13]

hello everybody, im new here. found your site as i was looking for info on my podgy synodontis - ive posted a thread about it in the emergency bit as it concerns me.

anyways, ive had the tank a couple of years and at the moment is contains :

koi angel
black angel
2 bronze cories
1 panda cory
humbug catfish
sailfin plec
some other sort of plec
krib
algae eater
bumblebee goby
headstander
some sort of big synodontis (the podgy one)
smaller sort of synodontis, possibly cuckoo ?
black shark
male odessa barb
small tiger barb
2 red eye tetra
2 penguin tetras
white tipepd tetra
3 danios
2 cherry barbs
glowlight tetra

and possibly a ghost shrimp, ive not seen him for a while hahaha.

all the fish are pretty small, the biggest is the podgy syno at about 5 inches long. the tank is a juwel, not sure which one but its about the same size as a rekord 600. its 3 years old now though i think it was a different model. it doesnt have real plants unfortunately. i havnt got a water test kit at the moment, but if im honest i probably dont change the water as often as i should. i have the pump set so that it breaks the surface of the water. i have a few questions though :

what is fish growth governed by ? feeding or size of tank ? my fish dont seem to get very big. the uknown plec pictured below is also a 3 year old fish, yet measures only 3-4 inches

how often should you feed - i was feeding everyday, but combined with my lack of water changes i had huge nitrates and was told to do some water changes and feed them less. i now put a algae disc, pinch of flake and pinch of catfish pellets in every other day. every other feed ill drop a bloodworm block in aswell. it all gets eaten when i feed them.

ive heard that you should have an inch of fish per litre, is this a good yardstick ? or is there a better way to judge how many fish you should have ? when i was writing mine above, it seemd like i had a bazillion fish, yet when i look into the tank even taking into account 2 fish that always hide, it looks perfectly stocked to me.

i have some black fluffy algae stuff that nothing is eating, any ideas what it could be ?

how often and how much should you waterchange ? i'll be honest, my tanks gone weeks without a water change and everything seems to be alright, right up until the time i mentioned earlier when i changed my feeding pattern.

heres a couple of pics of the tank, and also a pic of the unknown plec and the unknow synodontis's - synodonti ?

 

[Wills]

holy crap that is a massively over stocked tank! I am literally amazed that you have had it for 3 years!!

The following fish are the fish you should not have in your tank and why - this list is done on the assumption that all these fish are about a year old or more

koi angel - as an adult should be 6 inches tall and long now - grows too big - though will be stunted in this tank now
black angel - grows too big - as an adult should be 6 inches tall and long now - though will be stunted in this tank now
humbug catfish - grows to 6-8 inches very greedy very messy fish - grows too big for this tank - though will be stunted by now
sailfin plec - grows to 18-20 inches very messy fish - grows to big for this tank - though will be stunted by now
some other sort of plec - this is a bristle nose and a female by the looks of it, a little big for the tank but by no means the biggest problem
krib - grows too around 6 inches and too aggressive to cram in there with the other fish suprised its not killed more
algae eater - many species under this name usually get to between 6-8 inches so as above
headstander - which species? I cant see in pic but then again all headstanders make at least 4 inches as adults if its not 4 inches its stunted so as above
some sort of big synodontis (the podgy one) - thats a synodontis eupterus again should be 8 inches if its not its stunted - which will explain the podge so to speak
smaller sort of synodontis, possibly cuckoo ? - looks like a hybrid species of syno but as above
black shark - should grow to a massive 24 inches if its not then again massivly over stocked
male odessa barb - should grow to 8 inches and needs to be in a school.

Right so I used the word stunting a lot in there that is basically what happens when a fish is in a tank that is too small so the hormones from the fish stop it growing to make sure it does not run out of room etc its based on how many hormones are in the water and the fishes nervous systems response to that. Its kind of like the myth of a goldfish growing to the size of its bowl. Well it is true but with truly catastrophic results for the fish. Because not all parts of the fish are told its meant to stay small so they carry on growing to the natural size for the fish the biggest give away are the fishes eyes. In the case of your syno with the podge I would say that some of his internal organs are trying to grow faster than his hormones are telling the rest of his body to grow - see how this could be a problem?

The attitude that needs to be taken to this tank is that anything on the above list that has been in there for around a year or more is stunted.

This tank is so bad I am literally amazed you have never googled anything about fish keeping in 3 years of having a tank.

The fish on the list above are fish you should never have put in the tank in a 63 liter tank you should only be keeping small fish like your cories and your glowlights with small feature fish like dwarf gourami or dwarf cichlids note the use of the word dwarf other fish you could house are things like pygmy gourami and micro rasbora note the use of the words micro and pygmy meaning small. Small fish go in small tanks not ginormous fish like the leopard plec and black shark.

Look I know this is comming across as rude and angry but it really does annoy me when people turn up on the forum with fish tanks like this. I want to help you and your fish but I just wish that you had researched your pets before you bought them either through reading a book or searching the internet.

This is an example of a stock list that you should have in that tank based on some of the fish you have at present

5 White Tipepd Tetra
6 Cherry Barbs
6 Bronze Corys
5 Ghost Shrimp

you would be able to add a pair or trio of feature fish to that tank as well probably.

I picked out the fish that are to my taste and IMO the most colourful that are suitable to this tank but the danios or glowlights could be in place of either the white tips or the cherry barbs and the same for the bronze and the panda cories. If there are other fish that you have at present and are not on my list then you need to rehome them or buy a bigger tank for them.

But that said the stunted fish that you have now I just dont know what you should do with them I mean it really is your choice, you either buy a very large tank for fish like the leopard plec and the black shark which realistically is going to be in the 6-7 foot range. Though admittedly if you just rehomed these 2 you would be able to manage the rest of your fish in a 4-5 foot tank.

The other option is to rehome them best you can either buy giving them to local shops or by trading them in for store credit. If you do get credit you will be able to use it to restock your tank with the fish from my list above to restock your tank and to make sure the schooling fish are in sufficient numbers.

Like I say sorry if this has come across as rude and angry but to be fair it is but at the same time I do genuinely want to help you and your fish because the way this tank is set up now is just cruel to the fish.

Wills

 

[kelvinrankin767]

This is an absolute discrace do you have any clue on how to keep fish, This tank is severly overstocked and you are asking why they arnt growing they arnt growing because they in such terrible conditions just about all those fish will need rehomed not unless you want to buy a 500L tank

 

[moochy13]

i do very much appreciate your honest reply.

firstly, not all of those fish have been in there that long. should have mentioned that sorry. big syno, bristlenose plec, panda cory and white tipped tetra are original. the rest of the fish have been added over time. the most recent fish are the humbug catfish, sailfin plec, headstander and one of the bronze corys, within the last month. from your list id say the bristlenose, angels, big syno and black shark have been in for over a year. i dont know how long fish take to get adult size, but quite a lot of them probably arent old enough. i had hoped to move the fish into a larger tank as they got bigger.

the krib is very placid. only approaches other fish when they are new, and quickly goes back to doing her own thing. i do google about my fish when i feel i need to, but as i dont seem to have too many problems ive never felt the need to research anything and everything. stunting doesnt sound good though. none of my other 'stunted' fish are displaying symptoms like the syno though, other than maybe being a bit too small. no deformed odd shaped fish though.

i do have a 6 foot + tank in the attic i used to keep a snake in, though it is originally a fish tank. i planned to use this as the fish got bigger, but obviously as theyre not growing i havnt felt the need to use it. im also a bit pushed for space at the moment, and as of yet am unsure the ex-snake tank is watertight.

i'll admit i obviously havnt done as much research as i should, but far as i could tell my tank looks alright, and my fish look healthy. so assumed everything was cool. guess id better let my fish stock decrease naturally, and check that other tank out in the attic. and try find somewhere to put it.

thanks. i think.

 

[Davo86]

i do very much appreciate your honest reply.

firstly, not all of those fish have been in there that long. should have mentioned that sorry. big syno, bristlenose plec, panda cory and white tipped tetra are original. the rest of the fish have been added over time. the most recent fish are the humbug catfish, sailfin plec, headstander and one of the bronze corys, within the last month. from your list id say the bristlenose, angels, big syno and black shark have been in for over a year. i dont know how long fish take to get adult size, but quite a lot of them probably arent old enough. i had hoped to move the fish into a larger tank as they got bigger.

the krib is very placid. only approaches other fish when they are new, and quickly goes back to doing her own thing. i do google about my fish when i feel i need to, but as i dont seem to have too many problems ive never felt the need to research anything and everything. stunting doesnt sound good though. none of my other 'stunted' fish are displaying symptoms like the syno though, other than maybe being a bit too small. no deformed odd shaped fish though.

i do have a 6 foot + tank in the attic i used to keep a snake in, though it is originally a fish tank. i planned to use this as the fish got bigger, but obviously as theyre not growing i havnt felt the need to use it. im also a bit pushed for space at the moment, and as of yet am unsure the ex-snake tank is watertight.

i'll admit i obviously havnt done as much research as i should, but far as i could tell my tank looks alright, and my fish look healthy. so assumed everything was cool. guess id better let my fish stock decrease naturally, and check that other tank out in the attic. and try find somewhere to put it.

thanks. i think.

Ok, I'm Not going to go into whats already been said because i'd just be repeating the others, but I'll simply put an answer to your theories above,

"i dont know how long fish take to get adult size, but quite a lot of them probably arent old enough. i had hoped to move the fish into a larger tank as they got bigger."

Generally big fish grow quick, In the wild a big fish's best defence is its size and therefore in nature to avoid getting eaten it will have evolved to grow quickly, the likes of sailfin plecs, larger synodontis and the black shark will at first should grow around an 1" per month at least until they are at least 1/3rd fully grown, that means that the shark and plec should be 8" within 8 months

the krib is very placid This isn't unusual as the problem here is that the tank has so many fish that territories can't be made for fish to defend as there are simply too many fish for the krib to chase, and it has probably realised that they have nowhere else to go

none of my other 'stunted' fish are displaying symptoms like the syno though, other than maybe being a bit too small. no deformed odd shaped fish though.

Unfotunately the Synos shape is a totally different problem to being stunted, This could simply be a fat cat caused by overfeeding, bloating again caused by overfeeding or feeding an unbalanced diet or Dropsy, a nasty symptom of a number of illnesses and diseases which unfortunately usually only ends up with one outcome. (although admittedly there doesn't seem to be any signs of pineconing in the picture which is almost like the final stage of the symptom

Just curious, what are your maintenaince/feeding regimes like on the tank?

 

[moochy13]

i feed a pich of flake, pinch of catfish pellets, 1 algae disc every other day. every other feed ill put a block of bloodworm in. this is the only food the podgy syno eats, so hes only eating every other feed. i'll hold my hands up that my water changes arent great. once every couple of weeks or so, about 30%. ive encountered various ways to look after the filter elements, so i tend to leave them most of the time as im not sure which.

what are rules for filter cleaning/changing ?
also whats the opinion of gravel 'hoovering' ?

thanks

 

[fluttermoth]

Moochy...I won't bother ranting on about your tank, as everyone else has said exactly what I would say already...

As your tank is so horrendously overstocked, you must improve your tank maintenance until you can reduce your stocking to an acceptable level.

I would say you need to be doing at least two changes of 50% a week, possibly more. You should try and get your water tested; I expect your nitrate levels wll be massive; maybe seeing the deep, blood red of that test will encourage you to keep up to date with those water changes...

With that amount of, what should be, large fish, you should be hoovering the gravel every time; lifting up the ornaments to get underneath them as well.

Oh, filter changing...you should gently rinse your filter media, in old tank water, any time the flow seems to be reduced; maybe once a fortnight in your case. You want it to not be clogged, but don't clean it too thoroughly; you musn't risk losing too many filter bacteria with your stocking.

 

[moochy13]

i shall be getting on the case pronto with the water changes. what should i be doing with the filter ? ive read and heard lots of conflicting information.

 

[fluttermoth]

Sorry, I added what you should be doing with your filter as an edit!

See my post above

 

[Wills]

Basically I would get ready to rehome most of the fish and seriously restock the tank with more suitable fish - like the tetras, micro fish, dwarf fish and pygmy fish like I said.

Ring around a few local stores to see which ones will take the fish in.

In the mean time keep up with twice a week 30% water changes.

Wills

 

[Davo86]

Agree with above 1 to 2 50% water changes with gravel clean per week is required but tbh it would be better if you can find a slightly bigger tank or even better a second tank off ebay or freecycle maybe to move some of/the fish between

Maybe worth taking a sample of your tank water to your local FS and asking if they could test it for you,

with regard to the Synodontis if its only eating bloodworms then it is likely to be bloated, Synos are omnivores and need a good amount of vegetation in their diet, with high proteins like bloodworm only being offered once or twice per week. Try offering Daphnia and brineshrimp instead, these will offer some nutrition but aren't as high in protein and in the case of Daphnia will actually help with the fish's digestion which atm seems to be constipated.

 

[moochy13]

right i got me some daphnia, frozen and live. not used live food before, the guy at the shop just gave it to me as he was getting some more in tomorrow. he also suggested a piece of cucumber left in for a couple of hours. im now going into the attic to check that big tank out, my old man seems to think it was cracked last time he saw it, i hope not.

should i feed the daphnia in the same way ive been feeding bloodworm? obviously im not putting anymore bloodworm in until i see what happens. how long should i wait before i can expect a constipated fish to sort itself ? after that time period i guess i need to think again if hes still podgy. thanks.

 

[Davo86]

frozen and live foods are best fed sparingly, IMO no more than 3 times per week, On the other days when you have been feeding bloodworm try feeding only the likes of cucumber/courgette (weighed down for upto 24hours before being removed) and deshelled peas,

It may also be worth buying a vegetable based flake to add to the mix

 

[moochy13]

every 3 days i was putting frozen bloodworm in so about what you suggest. i'll carry on as usual with daphnia instead of bloodworm then. with some cucumber or something every now and then. when you say deshelled peas, you dont actually mean peeling the individual peas do you just out of the bag, boil them up and chop them and put them in ?

ive just been in the attic ive got a 36 x 17 tank (about 17 high) and a 48 x 17, about same height again. thats inches. not sure what volume that gives me, i was never much good at maths. but does that sound big enough for the bigger fish in the tank ? im thinking syno's, sailfin plec, angels, humbug cat, black shark ?

 

[gbailey141]

You need to squeeze the peas from the outer shell, throw the shell in the bin and then crush up the inner part of the pea you have left. The 48x17x17 will give you appx 50 Gallons or 227 litres which is still way short for these fish. However being able to split them in 2 tanks would certainly help for now.

Gav