Livebearers...

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Ok so i know this should realy go in the livebearers section, but since i feel it is such an important issue i think it desearves the more likely larger amount of posts/comments here, anyways...
So much of the time now i see threads like "my livebearers have had fry and i don't have the space for them" or "i can't find anywhere to rehome my fry, my lfs won't accept them" or "i just got some female platys and they've had fry and i don't know what to do or what to feed them etc" etc.

When you buy mixed gender group of livebearers or all-female groups, be prepeared they will almost definatly have fry. Livebearers, particualy guppys, platys and mollys, are notorious for reproducing on a regular and large scale.
Mollys can have up to 100+ fry for example.
Guppys can breed once a month, to name a few.
Having all-female groups of livebearers does not also eliminate the posibilty of fry, because they can store sperm for up to 7 pregancys and all they have to be is with a male of the same species at the breeders place before they go to your lfs to have fry.

What i dislike is the irresponsability of people breeding livebearers nowdays...
Ask yourself, why do you want to breed them? Is it just because "you want to"? There are millions of livebearers already available in lfs's needing homes, and unless you want to better the species in some way, why add to the growing problem of livebearers already out there needing homes?
Trust me, breeding livebearers isn't much of a breeding experience. You put a male and some females in a tank, they mate and get pregnant and you end up with the fry; they pretty much do all this on their own and it isn't exactly a challenging or enlightening experience.
What will you do with the fry when they are born? As i have already mentioned, livebearers can produce large quantitys of fry and you cannot rely on your guppys just producing a few; what will you do if you end up with 40?
Sure, you can put them down, but i think this is very irresponsable if you knew you couldn't accomodate the fry in the first place; they are living baby creatures after all and life shouldn't be somthing thats thrown away when it becomes inconvinient.

When you put a male and female livebearers together, they breed. simple as that.

Also, the other note i'd like to mention to people trying to acheive fry as quickly as posible, buying an already heavily pregnant livebearer as it is very irresponsable and stressfull on the pregnant fish.
You will dramatically increase/raise the chances of her having birth complications like miscarriages, still born fry, fry defects, poor batchs of fry, the increased chance of the mother fish dying during giving birth or not been able to give birth normally/with ease at all; you also increase the general chance of her dying from stress from going from the lfs to settling into your tank.
If you cannot have the patience to breed livebearers yourself without cheating via buying pre-heavily pregnated fish, you probably shouldn't be breeding them at all.
The other thing i'd like to mention is about mixing genders in livebearers; more than too often i see people with mixed gender groups with ratios like 3males to 1female or 4males to 6females etc and then they post in asking why is their female guppy getting harrassed and nipped to near death by all their male guppys etc.
The minimum mixed gender ratio for the majority of livebearers is 1male per 2-3females, although in swordtails the female ratio is greatly increased when having more than one male due to male swords behavior not to get along with each other very well at all.
I also advise adding an extra female for every extra male you get after 2, i.e 3males per 7females, or 4males per 10females etc.

This is quite basic information to take in, please consider at least these aspects of keeping livebearers before you get them.
Any comments are much appreciated

 

[Grey Legion]

Great Post,

As we all know many people start there fish keeping adventures with some guppies and a 5-10 Gallon tank, and it gets real busy real fast..

I myself breed guppies, some for food and some for show I follow a natural balance not every fry can survive..I enjoy the hobby and my fish are well taken care off. (sadly the choice of who lives is up to me and I take care not to overstep that responsibility )

Your points are clear and make perfect sence anyone getting into the hobby of fish keeping really should avoid livebearers if possible until they have a program set up to house the young..

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Cheers grey legion
After much thought on the subject, i do not believe livebearers make good "beginners fish".
The hardyness of guppys for example varys greatly from pedigree to pedigree and some are about as hardy as neons.
There is also the prospect and responsabilty of fry and pregnancys and of gender ratios of course too.

I blame the lfs's mostly in some ways, but when it comes down to it, it is the owners responsability to do the research; i know its all fine and well saying that but im sure plenty of people new to fish keeping or are about to go into it look at this forum everyday so i'd just like to help make a start in rasing some of the issues so people can hear about them at least

 

[dwarfgourami]

Oh, TokisPhoenix, I feel really guilty now! I did get livebearers and I did buy females, but I do take your point.

In mitigation, I am planning to try only to save a few of each batch, I have left plenty of tank space and am planning to separate out any surviving fry into separate tanks as soon as they can be sexed so that only the first generation gets to breed (avoiding overcrowding and inbreeding). Do you think this will work?

Can I just add that a lot of people start out with platies because they are trying to act on advice given (not least on this forum) about hardy starter fish, so perhaps it is a little harsh to then round on them for being irresponsible? A lot of people are genuinely trying to act on the advice of the most experienced fishkeepers. What needs to be done is clearly to qualify the advice given to beginners.

I have read your postings about your own breeding programme and I think it sounds great!

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Thanks for the compliments, i didn't mean to sound harsh or scare people away, i just want people to think about this kind of stuff.
Separation the genders from a very early age as soon as the individual genders become apparent does work as i have tried it myself
I don't think putting fry down is bad as long as you don't do all the time everytime after knowing the consequences; is suppose its fine as long as you do it respectfully i suppose thats all im trying to get at.

I think the majority of livebearers are hardy, but guppys realy are a grey area when it comes to hardyness; in my guppy project im doing im beginning to find how much difference in levels of how hardy particular pedigrees/strains of guppys are, which is why i don't realy suggest them to newb's that much anymore.

 

[dwarfgourami]

I wasn't planning on putting fry down, as much as letting them do it themselves if you see what I mean...

I hope you are going to keep us posted on your project because it is sounds so interesting, and exactly the sort of thing that is needed. I love the way you really seem to appreciate and be interested in livebearers for their own sakes; often they are seen as just a disposable stage on someone's way to keeping "real" fish.

I think they are great little creatures, and would be perfectly happy to spend time just learning more about them (and my corys), rather than rushing through the entire stock of the lfs, which is pretty much what I did in my previous life. (Needless to say, I didn't learn anything much about anything).

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Livebearers will always have a soft spot in my heart, i think they are lovely friendly fish that all have their own personalitys and charm and they are so varied.
I suppose what i feel for livebearers is similar to what many of the betta/siamese fighter savers and adopters feel for their fish.
The guppy project is running a little slow at the moment due to me not having enough space for many tanks but hopefully that'll get sorted out once my search for a larger place to live succeeds
Im not sure if its just the ones i've ended up with, but black tuxedo guppys and red cobra crossed ones seem to be very hardy; the pale yellow color guppys at the moment i would rate a general hardyness between 6 and 8 out of 10 but they do vary alot; so far they tend to have the most birthing difficultys but the highest fry batchs and survival rates.

 

[annka5]

I agree that allowing any living creature to breed without giving a thought to what you do with the offspring is really irresponsible; however, I reckon you also need to consider some more.
My understanding is that most livebeareres are not particularly long-lived; so after 3 years (I imagine in reality its less than this, given that you buy them as adults or near adults) the average fish keeper with livebearers will be looking for replacements. The death rates of commercially-bred fish in transport have got to be high (and a nasty way to go), along side the euthanasia rates - otherwise commercial breeders would go out of business rearing unsaleable fish (due to vigour, deformities, unappealing color, etc).
So even if accidental breeding results in, say 80% of the fry being humanely destroyed, this is likely to still be at worst comparable to commercial death rates, and at least in the case of death-in-transit, a kinder death.
Clearly, obligation then for there not to be endlessly repeated accidental breedings of siblings, but surely if the mistake is made once then common sense will suggest that separating them is necessary?!!
Also, whilst many fish only survive poor conditions (as in, have a miserable life but happen not to die) guppies seem to simply not notice them - even looking at the spread of populations in the wild suggests this. Am not suggesting to be a guppy psychologist, here, just on the balance of probability.
Therefore, I reckon they're actually a perfectly OK beginners fish, although I totally agree with the balance of males /females thing - but after all thats no different than looking at compatibility of other community fish.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I don't think guppys are good beginners fish due to the levels of inbreding many of the pedigrees go through to produce their colors or variations, many of these are about as hardy as neons meaning they are not suitable for a cycling or recently matured tank and thus a likely beginner.
I don't think you inderstand fully the extent of this, "guppy" is realy just a word to define the group now, but there are so many variations available now with so many different qualitys, if they didn't have a guppy-like shape to them they'd almost be a completely different fish.
Many of the inbred guppys are also for example much, much more prone to desease due to their lowered imune system due to inbreeding and thus will get sick on a much more regular basis and handle desease less well, which is not could for a beginner. there isn't realy a comparrison to wild guppys and domesticated guppys anymore as so many of the domesticated ones, particually long fancy tailed ones, cannot even survive in a tank bigger than 50gals due to not having enough muscle from long term breeding in their tails, their tails simply split to shreds.
To your question of why people don't learn with "accidental" fry first time most of the time is
a. it only takes a couple of mating with a male for the female to store up enough sperm for up to 7 pregnancys, thus removing the male doesn't make a difference as the female will still get pregnant without him from then on,
b. Many people i think take for granted the amount of fry livebearers can produce; what do you do when you were only expecting about 20fry from your molly and she ends up giving you 100?
Many people also take for granted the rate at which livebearers reproduce; a female guppy can be producing 20+fry once every month or 2 for example.

 

[Pysgodyn]

I think you should be congratulated for being so blunt and honest here. I understand completely where you are coming from, but can't stop thinking I'm one of these people myself. And like you said, there's no way of stopping them from mating, other than not having them in the first place.

But it's good that you've made me think about it - infact it's always good to be encouraged to think about stuff, instead of just doing it (in all areas of everyday life, not just in fish).

I'm very excited that my guppies have a dark gravid spot, and can't wait to see the fry. But as I'm a relatively new fish-keeper, it's the novelty that makes me feel this way. And what you've said has made me rethink my previous plans/hopes of separating the fry to a 6gal tank. Instead, I shall leave them be. If there will be any survivors, then my current tank WILL be able to hold them. And if not, then the same will happen as happens in the wild - they'll be eaten. I don't have a male at the moment, so eventually (I do understand that they can 'store' sperm), the pregnancies should cease (provided I'm able to rehouse any male offspring that may survive in the meantime). You really HAVE made me think here!

One note though - for every negative point, maybe you could try and offer an alternative? When I first read your first post here, I instantly felt quite defensive (but that's my problem, right?! ) BUT be careful, because if you're going to be bold and honest (which I highly commend ), some members on the forum will be afraid to ask questions, at the fear of being 'shouted at', and as a result won't have the valuable input of experienced fish-keepers like yourself into the care of their own fish...which will eventually lead to more irresponsible behaviour (without people being aware of it).

See, I'm quite a sensible person really...just inexperienced, that's all )

Thanks again!

 

[Angry_Platy]

When I got livebearers I knew they would have fry at an unbelievably rapid rate. This was OK for me, I didn't start out with many fish and had friends that would take the fry when required. All worked out fine in that regards.

Now I have a 30gal tank of mainly platies and I love the little fish. To me they are the prettiest tropical fish....in this regard they beat my cichlids and loaches etc. I have bought pregnant fish, not because they are pregnant but because of their striking colours. It is pretty hard not to buy a pregnant livebearer anyway (female anyways).

As for the fry overpopulating the tank, I have not had a problem with that. My females get pregnant then they assumedly guve birth. I am not 100% sure on this as I never see any fry in the 30gal tank . The only livebearer fry that I end up keeping are ones I intentionally keep through segregating the mother in a birthing tank (5gal). I have never needed to intentionally cull my livebearer fry. Perhaos my other fish allready do that for me without me knowing!!!

At the moment in my 30gal I have 10 platy/swordy females and one platy male. None of the fish get harrassed, I keep my ratios like this to prevent aggression.

And yes, breeding livebearers isn't a challenge.....just tell that to me DAMN SWORDIES who still won't give me fry after 3 months...... But they are beautiful fish nonetheless.

 

[Invader675]

Gosh that's a big rant, logical though. To address a few points you made:

I am breeding Guppys as a starter fish to learn about how to look after fry so one day I can move onto more interesting and respectable fish like Betta or Corys or whatever. A lot of people do the same and it's wrong to criticise them for doing this just b'cos "there are loads of lives bearers already". You even contradict yourself by later saying it's wrong to put the fish down. Surely preventing them being born is as bad as killing them once they are born since both advocates the fishes non existance? Hmmm now we're getting into philosophy.
Don't get me wrong on this, I'd never put a fish down purely b'cos I don't have room and I'm not defending it, just trying to add another view.

I know that I have room for the fry to grow up once they are big enough to leave the breeder trap (if I can fix my new setup! Stupid heater is on the blink!) and I'll sepperate the best fish and put them into my community to replace the inevitable fatalitys that will occor between the fry maturing and now. Any fish I don't want to keep I can give to my LFS for free or exchange them for fish flakes.

I don't feel like I'm being irresponsible in my actions at the moment although if I am doing something wrong I'd like to be told now rather than later.

 

[NinjaSmurf]

One word.


Feeders.






Now, for some more words, because I can't help myself. I have been wondering this same question now for awhile, but not on guppies, but on fish in general. All I seem to see is people with fish laying eggs, dropping fry, and people are so excited, freaked out and/or needing help because they were not expecting it. Yet I continue to see people suggesting male/female stocking and hardly ever giving same-sexed alternatives. Sure, 1male/2females, but most of the time people don't say anything about just getting males. A tank of male guppies can work people. No one seems to think that maybe we don't want to breed fish, we just want them to look good. Personally I can and will breed certain fish of mine because:

1. I can pass them on to a trusted LFS.

2. I use them as feeders.

3. Nobody breeds unless I let them.


And if people are so eager to breed a fish then get something that is harder to find at a decent non-wallet eating price and breed them. I'm saving up for a 55 gallon or larger tank this summer, and once I do I'm turning my 30 into a apisto breeding tank because I see no one selling these for a cheaper than my leg price. I know I will be able to give these to the LFS and probably set up a deal with the owner because of their rarity around here.

 

[pica_nuttalli]

i think the biggest reason that you only see m:f ratios given out as stocking guidelines is that few people want to keep livebearers except to have the experience of fry. even i got into guppies because i saw an unusual coloration and i wanted to try to capture it. plus a single sex guideline is pretty simple: how many do you want/have space for?

WARNING: READ NO FURTHER IF YOU'RE SENSITIVE. I HAVE AN OPINION AND I'M NOT AFRAID TO EXPRESS IT. REALLY, I'M SERIOUS. I'M NOT A VERY NICE PERSON. DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT IT EITHER; YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

i get peeved myself seeing so many people just freaking out because they can't save every fry their livebearer drops. a lot of times i really want to just tell them "don't worry about it; you'll have a whole new batch in 6 weeks anyways!" i've always kept the fry in with the adult fish and up until now i've always had "leftovers". but i didn't feel bad about them making it because those were the fastest or cleverest or most nitrate-resistant fish. thus a slight improvement. and every LFS where i've offered them has requested i bring in another batch.

i think that a big part of the inbreeding issue is the average hobbyist going out of their way to save all 100 hundred fry dropped by their fish. not only are these inbred little critters, but they've been coddled from day one and almost completely isolated from any sort of natural weeding out. what people forget is that any fish that has more than 20 fry at a time does so because not all of them should be expected to survive. thus the fish with the highest number of the most successful offspring gets its genetics passed on. by using fry tanks and making special provisions, we circumnavigate these natural checks and balances.

personally, i only think that by-passing survival of the fittest should only be done if there is a special demand for a species or variation. if your LFS specially requests for more of your fry, have at it. raise as much as they'll take. but if you've just got some run-of-the-mill mutt guppy or a red-washed veiltail betta, you aren't helping anything by glutting the market with more watered-down fry. it goes beyond finding a friend who'll spare some space for it--i don't think you should be trying to save fry unless it is desireable enough for someone to want for money.

i did warn you not to read it if you're sensitive.

 

[dwarfgourami]

I think you've got a good point, pica; part of the problem is not just inbreeding, but survival of the least fit. And it can't be just hobbyists, either; a lot of the problems currently seen in neons and guppies must be due to the fact that breeders make more money rearing everything (probably, I'd imagine with the aid of antibiotics) rather than culling and this must weaken the strain.
As a returning livebearer-keeper, I have been at great pains to explain to my children (4 and 8) that not all baby fish are meant to survive and that this does not upset the mummies or daddies; that fish are different from humans and that nature has designed things to make everything work out right.