Live Foods.

[three-fingers]

omg, everyone just loves to attack me don't they? just like to find my posts and say something don't you? god, stop being immature about thigns i say ok? i don't think any FISH should be used. but brine shrimp and things are different. i'm not saying everyone has to do alternatives am i? i'm freaking sick of you guys thinking everything i say should be right, omfg, get over it!!!!

This is a debate/discussion, it's not as if people are actually seeking out your posts to disagree with you....

Gatorbait made a good point, some people may feel the same way you feel about fish but with daphnia and other live foods.

Nobody was attacking you .

 

[Gatorbait]

you were acting like you thought i had to be right and stuff. it sounded like you were being rude. sorry for the misunderstanding, but everyone has been misundertsanding me on here. and i'm not a jerk, but it just lookedlike you were.

I apologize also.

That's why I started my post saying To Play devils advocaate....

I am interested in hearing what others think and what you thought about some live foods being ok and others not because I fel the same way. I don't agree with large fish that suffer but I do with small fish that are eaten right away. Same with brine shrimp etc. They are eaten right away but why is it ok for everyone for that to be live food but not fish? Small fish would fall into the microworms and brine shrimp category. Is it because fish have more of a personality?

That's not meant to be pointed at you personally. You just happened to bring it up and since I feel the same way, I was generally interested in hearing why you thought that way because I haven't given very much thought as to why I feel that way but I think it's because small fish and worms don't suffer. But that's pretty hippocritical of me to think that way.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

actually, no. there are some species of fish which are usually stocked amoung some fish shops for the sole purpose of them being sold as "feeder fish"

LOL

illegal, give us the details of any shop that does that Dany LOL

not being silly Dany, honestly, its illegal mate, bit late in the day to prove it mate, but rest assured its illegal, read a billion threads on this!

actually, no. there are some species of fish which are usually stocked amoung some fish shops for the sole purpose of them being sold as "feeder fish"

Not in the UK....if you know a shop that does, then it's breaking the law .
Though It is not illegal to keep fish that will only eat other live fish, it is technically illegal to actually feed them live fish.
If the fish NEEDS live food, then they wouldn't prosecute, but if the fish would eat anything else they would.

Actually this is just plain wrong. There is no statute preventing the feeding of fish to other fish. The relevant statute is the Animal Welfare Act 2006. I read the statute presented a breakdown on this thread. For clarity I have reproduced my post below:

-------------------------------------

There is a statutory defence to anyone feeding a predator feeder fish, especially if the predator is not eating frozen yet, by using s. 4(3) of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 (in particular note my bold):

4(3) The considerations to which it is relevant to have regard when determining for
the purposes of this section whether suffering is unnecessary include:

(a) whether the suffering could reasonably have been avoided or reduced;
​

(B) whether the conduct which caused the suffering was in compliance with any relevant enactment or any relevant provisions of a licence or code of practice issued under an enactment;
​

(c ) whether the conduct which caused the suffering was for a legitimate purpose, such as -
​

(i) the purpose of benefiting the animal, or
​

(ii) the purpose of protecting a person, property or another animal;
​

(d) whether the suffering was proportionate to the purpose of the conduct concerned;
​

(e) whether the conduct concerned was in all the circumstances that of a reasonably competent and humane person.​

​

You are preventing a predator from having a long, drawn out death from starvation by giving it a meal. The death of the prey is swift and there is no unnecessary suffering so long as you have some basic ethics about using feeder fish.


It is interesting to note that there is nothing that I can see in the entire act and appended schedules that even mentions the term "feeding". There are no provisions made for the inclusion or exclusion of it in the actions made illegal by the act. Suffering is described as:

"suffering" means physical or mental suffering and related expressions
shall be construed accordingly;

s. 62(1) Animal Welfare Act 2006

--------------------------


If you note, the whole of the above statute deals with nunnecessary suffering. There is no case law I am aware of at the moment that has clarified exactly what is necessary, and I doubt that the Crown Prosecution Service is going to waste time on fish keepers when they will be having to make case law and pay some pretty hefty prices for barristers.

I would suggest that by feeding any animal a live food that can be swallowed in one go you will not fall foul of the law. Though one could look at the swiftness of death between being asphyxiated in a stomach or having one clean bite take your head off...

I completely agree Andy.
With the things i said in my original post on the first page of the thread taken into consideration, the reason why i think it is ok to feed fish to other fish is because;
a. I honestly believe that there are some fish which are near imposible or imposible to move onto dead/prepared foods, and trying to force such fish onto prepared/dead foods via starvation often causes them much stress and harm.
b. Fish which can be moved onto prepared foods should be tried though- i say this more with the sake the of the predatory fish in mind though. Feeder fish are an unreliable food source- there may not always be suitable fish you can afford to feed to your predatory fish, there may not always be healthy feeder fish available, and there is always a risk of passing desease from the feeder fish onto the predatory fish.
So i think you should try to move the fish onto prepared foods as there are less risks involved in some respects. I mean, what if you end up in the situation where you have a fish that only eats live foods and you cannot get any live foods for it to eat?
I'm undecided though about the starving of predatory fish though to force to the fish onto prepared foods- i think this can sometimes cause the predatory fish more stress and harm than what the predatory fish would ever cause a feeder fish to feel.

I think a lot of people get wound up about feeder fish because of the debate of how nesarsary it is to feed them to other fish- but there are certainly cases where it is nesarsary (i.e. the predatory fish won't accept any other type of food) or benneficial for the fish involved. But i'm sure a lot of us are hypocrites in the how nesarsary sense either way in our own feeding habits- how many of you here eat meat? How many times have people here eaten meat when they could have decided not to eat meat? The majority of the population are omnivores and eat meat amoungst other foods, and half the time we eat meat it is probably unesarsary.
As long as the feeder fish is suitable for the predatoy fishes dietry needs and was raised well and can be killed humanely/quickly by the predatory fish, i don't see a problem with it.

A lot of fish are predatory- angelfish for example, relish eating the small fry of other fish. If you keep breeding guppys and an angelfish together in the same tank and the angel eats the guppy fry, surely you are guilty of feeding live fish to the angelfish by allowing them to eat the guppy fry in the tank? Just a thought.
Even guppys eat their own fry from time to time. But i still keep my guppys and their fry together in same tank knowing that the adults often eat the fry (its one of the ways i keep control of their population) and so thus i am technically allowing the fry to be eaten by the adult fish in the tank and thus i must be guilty of feeding feeder fish- i even used to feed my betta small guppy fry from time to time as well in the past when he was alive. I don't think it was cruel to do so at all- the fry (usually less than a week old) were instantly caught and swallowed by the betta, thus instant and humane death for guppy fry in question.

 

[Gatorbait]

Great post, Tokis-Phoenix.

You touched on quite a few things I think and also the "hippocrite" part. The post just above yours I even said I felt that way thinking the way I do.

Even though I'm at fault for it and you probably added-

"I'm undecided though about the starving of predatory fish though to force to the fish onto prepared foods- i think this can sometimes cause the predatory fish more stress and harm than what the predatory fish would ever cause a feeder fish to feel."

...because of what I said, I agree with you there, also. I don't have any source to back it up but it can't be healthy to try and wait out my fish to get them to eat prepared foods.

To be honest, it's a constant day to day struggle for me on what to do as to what's best for the rhom. There are 3 things that are definite though in this quest...

1. He loves and wants live fish

2. He will not eat prepared foods right away

3. He will not starve himself and let himself die

Like I said it's a balancing act and a struggle to change him over. Sometimes I wonder if it's worth it, others I'm sure it is.

Again, very good and well thought out post.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Thanks Gatorbait, i agree with you also on this topic

 

[Amunet]

Well, not debating any cause I didn't read the whole thread... heh
I don't have a problem knowing other people use live foods. I myself don't think I ever could though... which is why I'll never keep fish that would need a live food or have to be conditioned off of live foods.
Plus there is just too much risk of spreading a disease to your fish from a live food, and I wouldn't want to chance that happening.

 

[t1tanrush]

i don't like people killing fish. there are alternative foods, so they don't need to buy and kill a big goldfish, or a bunch of small ones. i've seen people take big fantail goldfish and put it in for piranahs. it's just not right. there are alternatives, so they should take them!

also, live foods like brine shrimp and microworms, doesn't bother me really.

Big Fantails and fish overly large is NOT for feeding purposes, the person thinks its funny, and thats why there are videos on youtube and other online video places that show this kind of behavior. Besides that, your saying we should all switch to alternative food sources? Like stuff made in a factory and processed into a cube? To me this isn't the best thing for the fish in my eyes, so feeding a balanced diet including fresh fish (alive or pre killed) is much more beneficial to the overall wellfare of the fish.

i don't like people killing fish. there are alternative foods, so they don't need to buy and kill a big goldfish, or a bunch of small ones. i've seen people take big fantail goldfish and put it in for piranahs. it's just not right. there are alternatives, so they should take them!

also, live foods like brine shrimp and microworms, doesn't bother me really.

To play devils advocate...

You can't pick and choose which live foods are ok to use as feeders based upon your personal beliefs and expect everyone else to be ok with it.

If you say you don't agree with large fish because they suffer but small fish are ok, that's different but you said all fish are not ok but other live foods are. There are other alternatives to live brine shrimp and microworms also so they shouldn't be used.

Well put.

omg, everyone just loves to attack me don't they? just like to find my posts and say something don't you? god, stop being immature about thigns i say ok? i don't think any FISH should be used. but brine shrimp and things are different. i'm not saying everyone has to do alternatives am i? i'm freaking sick of you guys thinking everything i say should be right, omfg, get over it!!!!

You weren't being attacked, I was attacked, if you think what you got based on 1 post is being attacked maybe you need to chill.. But your saying those shrimp's lives aren't as important as a fishes lives?

 

[andywg]

I'm undecided though about the starving of predatory fish though to force to the fish onto prepared foods- i think this can sometimes cause the predatory fish more stress and harm than what the predatory fish would ever cause a feeder fish to feel.

However, one has to understand about how infrequently many predators will feed. They are not warm blooded so do not require a constant supply of food to maintain their body temperature (like humans do). Secondly, most that have to be weaned onto dead foods have a habit of eating quite large meals, and then having periods of imobility while the dinner is digested.

In the wild a frogfish might go weeks between eating, so starving one for 7-10 days before offering some dead food is not placing any stress on the fish. Trying to get a fish that has gorged itself on live food to eat dead food is going to be far harder than getting a fish that is hungry and wants to eat something to take dead food.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

So i suppose a lot depends on what type of predatory fish you have then i guess. Other factors like whether the predatory fish actually has any scavenging habits in the wild probably also play a large factor in how willing it can be to take dead food.
What are the most difficult predatory fish to move onto prepared foods?

 

[andywg]

So i suppose a lot depends on what type of predatory fish you have then i guess. Other factors like whether the predatory fish actually has any scavenging habits in the wild probably also play a large factor in how willing it can be to take dead food.
What are the most difficult predatory fish to move onto prepared foods?

From my reading (and CFC's experience) Leaf fish and Chaca Chaca catfish are almost impossible to get onto dead. I am not sure of too many other FW fish, but I am sure that CFC knows of a few others.

A number of marine fish can be very hard, particularly the smaller, more cryptic frogfish. There the real problem is that the frog may hide out of site so waving the food in front is very difficult.

Ribbon eels are notoriously hard to get to feed. The blacks have been known to not even take live shrimp, while the white ribbons are said to be even harder to get onto dead due to a habit of running away from the food offered (though this does not match up with my experiences).

True SW sharks can be quite hard to get to feed at all shortly after hatching, and younger ones can refuse for some time to take to dead. I am fairly sure that octopus tend to need live foods.

An important thing to remember about the above is that with the exception of the FW fish mentioned, all the others should accept live shrimp without too much trouble. The FW preds mentioned above almost need live fish rather than just live foods, so I would consider them harder.

 

[puddle_inc]

what i mean when i say different is kind of....

the shrimp get swallowed and die fast. the fish, usually get torn apart, they loose there tail and keep moving, they suffer longer. they don't die very good and it just doesn't seem fair for them. when shrimp and live foods get swallowed and eaten quickly, the fish get to loose body parts, while there still alive. they suffer more, usually.

like when i get my eel, i'm not gonna feed him cubes from a factory, but already killed fish and shrimp. buying from a store where your fish are already killed, i think, is more humane then whatching your fish tear a fish to shreds. but thats just my opinion.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

So i suppose a lot depends on what type of predatory fish you have then i guess. Other factors like whether the predatory fish actually has any scavenging habits in the wild probably also play a large factor in how willing it can be to take dead food.
What are the most difficult predatory fish to move onto prepared foods?

From my reading (and CFC's experience) Leaf fish and Chaca Chaca catfish are almost impossible to get onto dead. I am not sure of too many other FW fish, but I am sure that CFC knows of a few others.

A number of marine fish can be very hard, particularly the smaller, more cryptic frogfish. There the real problem is that the frog may hide out of site so waving the food in front is very difficult.

Ribbon eels are notoriously hard to get to feed. The blacks have been known to not even take live shrimp, while the white ribbons are said to be even harder to get onto dead due to a habit of running away from the food offered (though this does not match up with my experiences).

True SW sharks can be quite hard to get to feed at all shortly after hatching, and younger ones can refuse for some time to take to dead. I am fairly sure that octopus tend to need live foods.

An important thing to remember about the above is that with the exception of the FW fish mentioned, all the others should accept live shrimp without too much trouble. The FW preds mentioned above almost need live fish rather than just live foods, so I would consider them harder.

Thanks for the info Andy .

Hmm...I think it would actually be a very good idea if people here helped build up an index from their personal experiences of fish which are difficult to move from live foods onto prepared foods- i'm sure such information would be a very important factor and useful for people thinking of buying certain predatory fish who wish to know such things .

what i mean when i say different is kind of....

the shrimp get swallowed and die fast. the fish, usually get torn apart, they loose there tail and keep moving, they suffer longer. they don't die very good and it just doesn't seem fair for them. when shrimp and live foods get swallowed and eaten quickly, the fish get to loose body parts, while there still alive. they suffer more, usually.

like when i get my eel, i'm not gonna feed him cubes from a factory, but already killed fish and shrimp. buying from a store where your fish are already killed, i think, is more humane then whatching your fish tear a fish to shreds. but thats just my opinion.

Fish only get torn to peices when they are too big to be swallowed by the predatory fish. As long as you are feeding the predatory fish the right size and right type of fish then they'll get swallowed up like the shrimp.
As i said in another post, i used to feed my old betta guppy fry but they were almost always a week or less old so they could be swallowed whole by him with ease. IMHO, Only irresponsable fishkeepers feed feeder fish which are too larger for the predatory fish to kill quickly.

 

[andywg]

Thanks for the info Andy .

Hmm...I think it would actually be a very good idea if people here helped build up an index from their personal experiences of fish which are difficult to move from live foods onto prepared foods- i'm sure such information would be a very important factor and useful for people thinking of buying certain predatory fish who wish to know such things .

The worst culprits (the FW ones listed) have mention of the extreme difficulty in getting them to take dead in their profiles on this site. I am not sure if we have articles for most of the other fish I mentioned (not too many SW oddball owners on this forum).

 

[puddle_inc]

i hate it when people, like the people in the videos, feed non-feeder fish to there fish, it's sickneing. i seriously about cried when i saw that large fantail get ripped to shreds.

i was searching for brine shrimp videos, and then it showed that big fantail in a tank, then i heard the jaws theme song

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

i hate it when people, like the people in the videos, feed non-feeder fish to there fish, it's sickneing. i seriously about cried when i saw that large fantail get ripped to shreds.

i was searching for brine shrimp videos, and then it showed that big fantail in a tank, then i heard the jaws theme song

Any type of fish can basically be a feeder fish, but basically goldfish in general aren't that suited for most predatory fish.