Lighting Question

[scottca]

Hi All,

What would you say the best combination would be for my planted tank, running compressed co2 and EI dosing

I currently have 1 x powerglo and 1 x life glo T5 HO bulbs, although these are now due for replacement. Should I stick with what I have or van you guys recommend a better combination? I'm looking for a good mix of healthy lush plant growth and the colours in the fish coming through.

Regards,

Craig

 

[JenCliBee]

Hi All,

What would you say the best combination would be for my planted tank, running compressed co2 and EI dosing

I currently have 1 x powerglo and 1 x life glo T5 HO bulbs, although these are now due for replacement. Should I stick with what I have or van you guys recommend a better combination? I'm looking for a good mix of healthy lush plant growth and the colours in the fish coming through.

Regards,

Craig

Really doesn't matter on specific bulbs, if google lampspec and visit there site buy on ordinary fluorescent tube and aim for 6500k-8000k for optimum plant growth. Purpose made 'aquarium' bulbs are bumped up in price because there sold as a specific use bulb but have no real difference to any fluorescent bulb with the same kelvin apart from cost 10 times as much lol.

 

[scottca]

Really doesn't matter on specific bulbs, if google lampspec and visit there site buy on ordinary fluorescent tube and aim for 6500k-8000k for optimum plant growth. Purpose made 'aquarium' bulbs are bumped up in price because there sold as a specific use bulb but have no real difference to any fluorescent bulb with the same kelvin apart from cost 10 times as much lol.

Excellent thank you

didnt actually occur to me that I could use normal fluoro's - what makes the "aquarium" specific ones enhance colours of fish? different spectrums? is that the same as different kelvin ratings?

Cheers,

Craig

 

[JenCliBee]

Really doesn't matter on specific bulbs, if google lampspec and visit there site buy on ordinary fluorescent tube and aim for 6500k-8000k for optimum plant growth. Purpose made 'aquarium' bulbs are bumped up in price because there sold as a specific use bulb but have no real difference to any fluorescent bulb with the same kelvin apart from cost 10 times as much lol.

Excellent thank you

didnt actually occur to me that I could use normal fluoro's - what makes the "aquarium" specific ones enhance colours of fish? different spectrums? is that the same as different kelvin ratings?

Cheers,

Craig

Pretty much yes mate, the lower you go 4000k, 3000k the bulbs gets more pinky, the higher you go 12000k etc become more intense white all the way upto colours like marine attic blue.

 

[scottca]

Excellent thank you, The power glo has a very high Kelvin rating, way above 10,000 I believe as I think my tank was shipped with them for the intention of being used with Marine.

Ill simply buy some T5's from the internet then that are not aquarium specific and go for the ranges you said. Thanks again, my replacement bulb bill has gone from £30 for 2 down to about £5

Sorry one more thing, am I right in thinking then that the "colour enhancing" bulbs will most likely just be a lower kelvin rating so they are more pink, therefore picking up reds etc in the fish?

 

[JenCliBee]

Excellent thank you, The power glo has a very high Kelvin rating, way above 10,000 I believe as I think my tank was shipped with them for the intention of being used with Marine.

Ill simply buy some T5's from the internet then that are not aquarium specific and go for the ranges you said. Thanks again, my replacement bulb bill has gone from £30 for 2 down to about £5

Sorry one more thing, am I right in thinking then that the "colour enhancing" bulbs will most likely just be a lower kelvin rating so they are more pink, therefore picking up reds etc in the fish?

Pretty much spot on, they will basically be whatever K shows colours on fish better, i like a pure white bulb so 10000-12000k is what i prefer but the optimum for plants would be 6500-8000k with as you said the more pinky enhancing one's been at the lower end of the scale.

Glad it saved you some money , just a side not if you purchase bulbs over the value of £9 on lampspec the postage goes down from £11 ish to £3.50 i think but there are plenty more online shops which sell the same bulbs anyways with possibly lower postage .


Anyways glad i could be of some assistance.

 

[ian]

Plants don't care about the K rating of a bulb, this is a old myth, they are more reliant on the PAR of a bulb, PAR is a measure of how much light there is within the photosynthetic range. The K of a bulb is purely aesthetic, on my main planted tank i run 2 9000k and it looks crisp.

The K rating in bulb colours

As for combinations, a lot of tanks use a 5-6000k and a 9000k. This will give a warm glow over a tank. Like i say, i use 2 9000k, it gives a clean look to a tank. A lot of aquascapers use the higher K. Obviously not as high a marine K.

 

[scottca]

Thanks guys, loads of useful information and decinateky glad I'm saving the pennies as well, especially as I'm need of a new drop checker, bubble counter, co2 tubing and a powerhead or two! Only been back into my tank for a few days and I'm hooked again!

So with this PAR rating, am I right in thinking different plants need different ranges? If so, is there anyway to match these requirements with specific bulbs? Or is is really not required?

Cheers,

Craig

 

[JenCliBee]

Plants don't care about the K rating of a bulb, this is a old myth, they are more reliant on the PAR of a bulb, PAR is a measure of how much light there is within the photosynthetic range. The K of a bulb is purely aesthetic, on my main planted tank i run 2 9000k and it looks crisp.

The K rating in bulb colours

As for combinations, a lot of tanks use a 5-6000k and a 9000k. This will give a warm glow over a tank. Like i say, i use 2 9000k, it gives a clean look to a tank. A lot of aquascapers use the higher K. Obviously not as high a marine K.

Strictly speaking this isn't fully correct, plants will always have an optimum spectrum range weather it matters or not is another matter simply because PAR has to be either higher or lower with certain colours on the spectrum range but because the average Joe doesn't have a PR meter it really doesn't equate to much because most will never know, the fact that the plants themselves can adapt to different K/spectrum light readings matters not to which bulb is purchased because they will adapt so easily in other areas to compensate for this.

So basically yes the bulbs will for us general people only have atheistical use and plants will grow under any light that is thrown at them because they will adapt.

I would still say (un-scientifically) that the closest colour to natural sunlight would be optimum for plants in general, this will be completely different to what other people will think but opinions differ everywhere i guess and without any scientific basis that either view is correct then it will always be a grey area.

To me as i said in an earlier post i would purposely buy higher K reading bulbs because i prefer the look others prefer that mix of a high k and a low k to even balance the colours and this is down to personal preference.

In hindsight what i should have said im earlier posts is that IMO the range i mentioned is optimal for plants and not stated that it is as fact, so i apologise there .

Thanks guys, loads of useful information and decinateky glad I'm saving the pennies as well, especially as I'm need of a new drop checker, bubble counter, co2 tubing and a powerhead or two! Only been back into my tank for a few days and I'm hooked again!

So with this PAR rating, am I right in thinking different plants need different ranges? If so, is there anyway to match these requirements with specific bulbs? Or is is really not required?

Cheers,

Craig

No not really, it doesn't really work like that for specific bulbs because plants will adapt to lighting they have been given, so the PAR reading would be more the fact of adding actually more light/more bulbs to give a higher WPG, the only problem here is plants will require more nutrients from the water and excess CO2 to cope with the higher intake due to high lighting.

So for this reason you have high tech or low tech, low tech is traditionally planted with slightly less demanding plants whereas the high tech can be more demanding because you can up what the plants need when there showing there not happy.

Bulbs specific is really down to the persons preference with mine been more a white light person, yours could be more a pink light person and the next person could want it completely balanced but either way it wont actually affect plants whatever bulb you put over them

Sorry about the rambling lol.

 

[ian]

which bit isn't correct? It's been proven that plants don't care about K ratings of bulb.

to quote Tom Barr

1. Stop listening to light bulb makers.
2. Listen to Plant Scientist.
3. The question is" does a color temp make a difference with respect to growth, and do plant marketed bulbs produce more growth than say cool white FL's?
4. Answer time: no, they do not.
5. Conclusion, as all bulbs have no significant affect on plant growth, chose a bulb that has the nicest color tempo aesthetics for your eyes.

It's really this simple, unfortunately folks wander off of tangents, misinformation/marketing, misapplied data, topics that have little to do with plant growth.................which is the basis for the hobby.

I've read two such well done research studies that both showed that the plant bulbs and cool whites had the same rate of growth for several species.

What is measured is PAR under the bulbs, not color temp:idea:
I have 2 PAR meters and have measured things myself quite a bit over the years. I agree fully with the studies and with what I've seen in the practical world using Cool whites.

They may not look pretty, but they are fine when it comes to growing plants. I use color mixes, say 5000K and 8000K etc, or maybe 9275K GE etc for reds. This is not for growth, it's for my own sense of color perception.

Don't waste your time with the rest.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[JenCliBee]

which bit isn't correct? It's been proven that plants don't care about K ratings of bulb.

to quote Tom Barr

1. Stop listening to light bulb makers.
2. Listen to Plant Scientist.
3. The question is" does a color temp make a difference with respect to growth, and do plant marketed bulbs produce more growth than say cool white FL's?
4. Answer time: no, they do not.
5. Conclusion, as all bulbs have no significant affect on plant growth, chose a bulb that has the nicest color tempo aesthetics for your eyes.

It's really this simple, unfortunately folks wander off of tangents, misinformation/marketing, misapplied data, topics that have little to do with plant growth.................which is the basis for the hobby.

I've read two such well done research studies that both showed that the plant bulbs and cool whites had the same rate of growth for several species.

What is measured is PAR under the bulbs, not color temp:idea:
I have 2 PAR meters and have measured things myself quite a bit over the years. I agree fully with the studies and with what I've seen in the practical world using Cool whites.

They may not look pretty, but they are fine when it comes to growing plants. I use color mixes, say 5000K and 8000K etc, or maybe 9275K GE etc for reds. This is not for growth, it's for my own sense of color perception.

Don't waste your time with the rest.

Regards,
Tom Barr

You've just quoted someones opinion just like my opinion?, so for that only alone it cant be used as an argument without some scientific background to support no matter who the person quoting it is.

I never said that the bulbs matter with plant growth, i said in my last post that under my opinion that plant growth would be optimum under a naturally occur sun spectrum.

if you want a full in depth read go over to ukaps and read under the lighting section to what Darrel and Clive say on the subject.

There will always be an optimum over a spectrum range, the fact that it doesn't matter to plants which range they sit under because they will ADAPT makes it irrelevant to which bulbs K reading is used. However i will say that one colour throughout the spectrum would have a higher PAR reading than the rest simply because it has to for light intensity purposes.

Like i said it matters not to the plants and in all honestly and to defend myself i never said this bulb or that bulb wouldn't grow plants, i simply said that IMO the closest match to natural sunlight would probably be IMO optimal for plants and plant growth.

 

[ian]

I have read in 'full' depth regarding the matter, i wouldn't have commented if going in blind, now i don't claim to be Ceg or Barr, but have massive respect for them both, and have conversed with both on another forum (not UKAPS). As for quoting opinions, i was on the iphone, and i'm sure Barr's opinion (fact) is a safer bet than anyone else's. I was just pointing out how 'K' doesn't matter what so ever in plant growth...I will quote Barr again lol

As far as what was said about the K rating not mattering, it's more a choice of aesthetic color choice by yourself, not growth of plants.

Then the normal cheap cool FL's work as well as the designer bulb color mixes if growth is the variable measured.

Aesthetics you can measure in other, more social scientific methods.
But as far as growth, they are in fact the same as far as the studies that have been comparing the two.

So pick a bulb that has a nice appealing color to your eyes/your senses.
But do not fall for the claim about better growth, less algae and the rest........

If you want real pretty reds, just buy Tom Barr's "Red Plant Paint" and get a brush. I gar-untee it'll make your plants red

Regards,
Tom Barr

And also a real in depth covo staring Clive regarding 'K' ratings.

http/www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/4768-K-rating-on-bulbs-and-Plants.

Now, if we are talking optimum ranges of bulbs, then there is an obvious 2000k-20000k would be your optimum, not 6-8k. I have 18k running over my tank, and am getting great growth results.

 

[JenCliBee]

I see a couple of problems here, Tom's opinions are as good as any's in the fact he has no scientific background or data on light nor how spectrum's work, just because he is in the aquascaping world doesn't make him a light genius. The other factor is youve stated (fact) after mentioning his opinion... thats a bold statement to give considering he has made no scientific data to back his comments just an observation this doesnt make it fact just becasue the person is Tom Barr.

Yes i agree with what he says in regards to K readings though and that it matters not but for general plant growth but i think your personally missing the point im trying to make .. ie at some stage in the spectrum range there is an optimal for everything weather it be at 1000k or 28000k weather it makes no difference in respect of plant growth has no real relevance simpley because and ill quote.....

If the entire tank were filled with actinic light then the plant would fabricate auxiliary pigments in order to convert this wavelength to other useful wavelengths.

So all in all the above comment alone states that a plant has to adapt to making atinic blue bulbs work which means that whatever K reading atinic happens to be isn't actually optimal and this alone makes K reading very very important and completes my point in respect of there is optimal ranges within the K spectrum.

I have read in 'full' depth regarding the matter, i wouldn't have commented if going in blind, now i don't claim to be Ceg or Barr, but have massive respect for them both, and have conversed with both on another forum (not UKAPS). As for quoting opinions, i was on the iphone, and i'm sure Barr's opinion (fact) is a safer bet than anyone else's. I was just pointing out how 'K' doesn't matter what so ever in plant growth...I will quote Barr again lol

As far as what was said about the K rating not mattering, it's more a choice of aesthetic color choice by yourself, not growth of plants.

Then the normal cheap cool FL's work as well as the designer bulb color mixes if growth is the variable measured.

Aesthetics you can measure in other, more social scientific methods.
But as far as growth, they are in fact the same as far as the studies that have been comparing the two.

So pick a bulb that has a nice appealing color to your eyes/your senses.
But do not fall for the claim about better growth, less algae and the rest........

If you want real pretty reds, just buy Tom Barr's "Red Plant Paint" and get a brush. I gar-untee it'll make your plants red

Regards,
Tom Barr

And also a real in depth covo staring Clive regarding 'K' ratings.

http/www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/4768-K-rating-on-bulbs-and-Plants.

Now, if we are talking optimum ranges of bulbs, then there is an obvious 2000k-20000k would be your optimum, not 6-8k. I have 18k running over my tank, and am getting great growth results.

Now this last comment has just contradicted all of what you've said in earlier posts?, so now your saying there is an optimal range?... broad range albeit but still states an optimal range.

Plants have to adapt to certain K readings and weather they can adapt or not to me that mean's it isn't exactly optimal dont you think?.... a plant that hasn't goto adapt as much or at all to a specific K to me makes one K reading more optimal than another simply why i said optimal range and IMO the most likely optimal range would lie with a naturally occurring sunlight spectrum around the 65000k mark.

Wont be getting further into an argument because this isn't what the OP asked for so i think ive given what i think on the matter and ill let the OP decide on what lighting he decides is aesthetically better for him .

 

[ian]

I think you trying to be a little picky now jake, you also cannot ask questions in your post and not expect a reply, with everything in life there is a optimal ranges, as you stated above the optimal range isn't 6-8k in fact there may be no optimal range! However if you read the thread provided, you'll find the scientific evidence from good sources. Not done by Hagen or jbl. I don't understand how you cannot take barr's opinion/fact as he has done the experiments that you are looking for. What we do know is tha k ratings are purely and simply for asctetics.

Again sorry to the op, personally if you want a warm looking tank go for 6000k and 9000k, if it's crisp the head for 9000k. Anything over this however looks to marine IMO.

 

[scottca]

Thanks guys, a good debate is healthy

You both have quoted some very interesting articals etc and im reading them at the minute. Dont apologise as IMO a good debate is sometimes the only way to go forward Im happy to sit and take everything in, learning all the time.

Kind Regards,

Craig