just had a massive angelfish die off

[Av3206]

so i have had my tank for 4 months now its a 45 gallon with a large sponge filter, a ziss bubble, and a fuval 70 with a sponge on the intake. the tank has a few live plants. i bought 8 dime size angle fish early april and i also have a 3 female plattys in the tank. the fish have grown i do at least a 25% water change each week sometimes more. i test the water every day with API strips ( just found out they are not great) i have never had anything show up on the strips. i did a water change on Saturday a week ago i was going out of town for the week. my tank is at my office so i have people to feed and check on them.
got a call monday that 2 of the angel fish were dead. i was like thats odd. as of friday no more deaths came home yesterday 3 more angles were dead and the 3 that are left have MASSIVE fin rot.

i did a 50% water change and dosed it with melafix i was also told to buy microbe-lift and start that cycle.
my numbers currently are as follows using tetra strips
nitrate 20-40
nitrite 0
hardness 75-150
chlorine 0
KH 120
PH 7.2-7.8
ammonia now its mostly yellow with a few green spots so not sure what to think of this.
tank temp is 80-81

i am sure i fed to much over time since i would miss at least one weekend day i would text to give extra the day before.
what is the proper water change % should i take at least 15-20 gallons of the 45 out each week.

needless to say i am devastated and being away made it so much worse.

honestly how much should i feed my fish i know it sounds insane but i dont know what else i could have done wrong

 

[Salty&Onion]

First, the tank is too small for angelfish, especially 8 of them. They get huge and are aggressive. A small school of angels should have atleast a 100 gallon tank.
Second, finrot is caused by poor water quality and so your nitrates are too high and nitrates should be kept below 20ppm. @Colin_T

 

[Av3206]

i am aware a 45 gallon tank is not a great set up for 8 full grown angel fish that was not my question and 45 gallons is more then enough room for 8 2 inch fish. i have other tanks to move pairs to that was my plan. i am asking about tank maintenance water changes and feedings. these forums are extremely disappointing to newer fish keepers when people just yell at you over crowd your fish tank or its to small for xyz.

 

[seangee]

If you are going to miss a day's feed there is no need to give extra the day before or after. Fish don't use energy to keep warm as we mammals do, so missing a day (or even a week) of feeding is no big deal. I fast my fish one day a week. Edit: forgot to say that if you are away for a week it is almost always better not to have someone else feed them. Unless they are fish keepers they are almost guaranteed to overfeed, which is worse than not feeding at all.

For water changes I recommend a minimum of 50% per week but suggest more. I have 4 tanks and change 75% every week in each one of them. This is best done as a single large change rather than 2 small ones. The reason for this is if you do a 25% change you are leaving 75% of the "bad stuff" in the water. This means a high chance that your fish are producing more bad stuff than you take out so it goes up over time. Large changes do make your water conditions more stable because you are taking it back to what it was before and it is always close to what comes out of your tap so if you have to do an emergency change there will be no shocks.

Someone else will have to advise on how much to feed angels, its many years since I kept them. One of my tanks has very (coff) enthusiastic feeders and those guys only get what they can eat in 30 seconds. If any hits the floor I have overfed. Another tank has lazy feeders and I know I have to give them 20 minutes - which also means I have to feed a different kind of food.

 

[FishGuest5123]

I don’t think anyone meant to yell at you. Perhaps came off a little scolding though. My apologies on behalf of the forum. We all do care and want to see you succeed.

 

[Av3206]

If you are going to miss a day's feed there is no need to give extra the day before or after. Fish don't use energy to keep warm as we mammals do, so missing a day (or even a week) of feeding is no big deal. I fast my fish one day a week. Edit: forgot to say that if you are away for a week it is almost always better not to have someone else feed them. Unless they are fish keepers they are almost guaranteed to overfeed, which is worse than not feeding at all.

For water changes I recommend a minimum of 50% per week but suggest more. I have 4 tanks and change 75% every week in each one of them. This is best done as a single large change rather than 2 small ones. The reason for this is if you do a 25% change you are leaving 75% of the "bad stuff" in the water. This means a high chance that your fish are producing more bad stuff than you take out so it goes up over time. Large changes do make your water conditions more stable because you are taking it back to what it was before and it is always close to what comes out of your tap so if you have to do an emergency change there will be no shocks.

Someone else will have to advise on how much to feed angels, its many years since I kept them. One of my tanks has very (coff) enthusiastic feeders and those guys only get what they can eat in 30 seconds. If any hits the floor I have overfed. Another tank has lazy feeders and I know I have to give them 20 minutes - which also means I have to feed a different kind of food.

thank you i was never sure on the exactish amount of water was safe to change i do them weekly and if i am out of town for the week i would do them before i left and the day i got home. just crazy how fast the wheels fell off this tank.

 

[Retired Viking]

Sorry about your angelfish, I had a mated pair in a 55 gallon tank, When they were young I tried not to over feed them, They are aggressive eaters so it always seemed they were staving the way they acted. Large water changes every week is important, I try to change 50% in my tanks. It can be a pain but it helps keep the fish healthy.

 

[Salty&Onion]

I don’t think anyone meant to yell at you. Perhaps came off a little scolding though. My apologies on behalf of the forum. We all do care and want to see you succeed.

Yelling or scolding wasn't my intention. Sorry if I came by this way, all I just said that angel fish get too big for a 45 gallon.

 

[Retired Viking]

I use 1 gallon water bottles and fill about 1/2 way with cold water and add dechlorinator then fill the rest with warm water so I can get the temp close to the tanks temp. I collected 20 of these bottles so I can let them sit for a little while. For my 55 gallon tank I have to mix in RO water to soften my hard water for my soft water fish. So I set up a 40 gallon plastic bin and mix the water in that. I then use a bucket to pour it into the tank. I have to watch out for my labs they like to play in it.

 

[Byron]

This needs some explaining. The first thing each of us as aquarists must recognize and accept is that the aquarium is a highly complex ecosystem that operates on the various rules of nature, be they chemistry or biology or microbiology. No single issue is in isolation. Every factor contributes to the whole, and every "abnormality" has a chain reaction. The fishes' unique and complex relationship to their aquatic environment significantly increases the effect of "x" or whatever. Terrestrial animals are no where near as tied to their environment.

The tank size is very relevant to what occurred; eight 2-inch angelfish in the cramped space (to the fish) of 40 gallons is causing stress. The group has probably established an hierartchy by now; in the wild the fish have room to escape, temporarily or if needed permanently, but this option is not available in an aquarium, unless it is massive. And it is not only physical but chemical; phermones released by the fish are chemical signals that the other fish read, and in the aquarium where the water is so limited compared to nature, these chemical signals have an even greater impact. This brings me to water changes.

The only way to remove these substances is with massive water changes. Given the species and volume, a weekly change of 75% would be essential. So this is another contributing factor.

Then there are nitrates at 20-40 which is causing quite substantial stress, as cichlids are highly sensitive to nitrate and studies have now shown than 20ppm can seriously compromise the fish's physiology. So this has weakened the fish, and added more stress. The weakening has affected other aspects of the fishes' functioning.

Feeding too much detrimentally impacts fish because they will eat if food is provided, but they do not havee the need for all this energy in an aquarium, so that causes internal issues. And obviously it seriously compromises water quality because what goes in must come out, and if one feeds for example double the amount of food that means double the waste and double the impact on the biological system.

Taken individually, each of the above may not seem like much, but the cumulative effect in an aquatic environment is considerable, biologically and physiologically speaking.

 

[FishGuest5123]

Yelling or scolding wasn't my intention. Sorry if I came by this way, all I just said that angel fish get too big for a 45 gallon.

I realize that but I know you and know you wouldn’t be mean. New people haven’t had an opportunity to know you yet and sometimes the written word is misinterpreted. Capital letters mean you are yelling.

 

[Av3206]

This needs some explaining. The first thing each of us as aquarists must recognize and accept is that the aquarium is a highly complex ecosystem that operates on the various rules of nature, be they chemistry or biology or microbiology. No single issue is in isolation. Every factor contributes to the whole, and every "abnormality" has a chain reaction. The fishes' unique and complex relationship to their aquatic environment significantly increases the effect of "x" or whatever. Terrestrial animals are no where near as tied to their environment.

The tank size is very relevant to what occurred; eight 2-inch angelfish in the cramped space (to the fish) of 40 gallons is causing stress. The group has probably established an hierartchy by now; in the wild the fish have room to escape, temporarily or if needed permanently, but this option is not available in an aquarium, unless it is massive. And it is not only physical but chemical; phermones released by the fish are chemical signals that the other fish read, and in the aquarium where the water is so limited compared to nature, these chemical signals have an even greater impact. This brings me to water changes.

The only way to remove these substances is with massive water changes. Given the species and volume, a weekly change of 75% would be essential. So this is another contributing factor.

Then there are nitrates at 20-40 which is causing quite substantial stress, as cichlids are highly sensitive to nitrate and studies have now shown than 20ppm can seriously compromise the fish's physiology. So this has weakened the fish, and added more stress. The weakening has affected other aspects of the fishes' functioning.

Feeding too much detrimentally impacts fish because they will eat if food is provided, but they do not havee the need for all this energy in an aquarium, so that causes internal issues. And obviously it seriously compromises water quality because what goes in must come out, and if one feeds for example double the amount of food that means double the waste and double the impact on the biological system.

Taken individually, each of the above may not seem like much, but the cumulative effect in an aquatic environment is considerable, biologically and physiologically speaking.

thank you for the info i know its pet store talk but i was always told 1 inch per gallon so 8 fish 2 inches i thought i had a lot of room before i had to start moving them along with the 3 filters and weekly water changes i had some runway.

 

[Byron]

thank you for the info i know its pet store talk but i was always told 1 inch per gallon so 8 fish 2 inches i thought i had a lot of room before i had to start moving them along with the 3 filters and weekly water changes i had some runway.

Every member on this forum will probably be able to relate stories of bad advice from fish stores, it is something we all encounter and have to get past. But as I trust I explained in my previous post, there is much more than just fish mass to water volume involved, and that is why the generalities like 1 inch per gallon or similar usually fall apart very quickly. And of course, filters can never make up for any of this; it is not possible to "over filter" in a beneficial sense, by which I mean that a single filter will do all that a filter can do, provided the tank is not overstocked in some way. And if it is, then more filters cannot help at all.

Larger and more frequent water changes can get around some of this, but not when it comes to the fish's normal interactions. The fish number, the species, their inherent behaviours and expectations which are programmed into the species' DNA, all play out.

 

[Av3206]

Every member on this forum will probably be able to relate stories of bad advice from fish stores, it is something we all encounter and have to get past. But as I trust I explained in my previous post, there is much more than just fish mass to water volume involved, and that is why the generalities like 1 inch per gallon or similar usually fall apart very quickly. And of course, filters can never make up for any of this; it is not possible to "over filter" in a beneficial sense, by which I mean that a single filter will do all that a filter can do, provided the tank is not overstocked in some way. And if it is, then more filters cannot help at all.

Larger and more frequent water changes can get around some of this, but not when it comes to the fish's normal interactions. The fish number, the species, their inherent behaviours and expectations which are programmed into the species' DNA, all play out.

ok so for future planning a 45 gallon tank how many fish should i have in the tank assuming 50% weekly water changes

 

[Byron]

ok so for future planning a 45 gallon tank how many fish should i have in the tank assuming 50% weekly water changes

It depends entirely upon the fish species. Again, it is not simply a matter of fish mass to water volume (this is about as far as most "calculators" get), but the species' needs.